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two too old to fly together.

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two too old to fly together.

Old 27th Feb 2012, 01:00
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Unionville, PA, USA
Age: 74
Posts: 117
The Yanks were a bit slow to up the age from 60 to 65 but now we dont have to deal with the over/under age 60 rule. Two 64 year old pilots work just fine, just as safe, probably more safe than age 40 and age 30.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 02:22
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Great Southern Land
Posts: 109
DX Wombat wrote:

If so, please let me know and I'll avoid the place and your airline (always supposing it isn't MSFS) like the plague.

What's wrong with MSFS anyway (it's as real as it gets!)
Flightsimman is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2012, 03:35
  #23 (permalink)  
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and the crew scheduling system did not issue a warning that both pilots were over 60, which it always does.
Surely that should read "which it Nearly always does"
Old 27th Feb 2012, 03:48
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 1,132
Age has nothing to do with it. Look at this poor fellow from CX yesterday. He is reportedly only 52 ...
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 04:16
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I'd go as far as saying that statistically more pilots have become incapacitated under the age of 60 than over.
Of course - there are, and always have been, considerably more pilots under 60 than over, or do you mean percentagewise ?
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:05
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 750
Godwin's law strikes again.
2 stupids law have been mentioned in this thread, one concerning age limit not being backed up by any statistics and facts, the other one is Goldwin's law, the most stupid "law" ever been made up by a single individual, the one that discovered the most important/crazy event in our modern times appears in our discussions very regularly.
Goldwin must be a genious. What a joke.
What next? Here the KAG's rule: the word "mama" will come after a short while when speaking with a kid.
An other one: when speaking on PPRuNe, aircraft or airplane will appear after a short cycle.
Too bad Goldwin didn't spend his genius to help humanity, what a waste of brain!

This is age racism, NZ got it right.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:08
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Okay crew scheduling goofed it.

But LOT isn't a big airline and these guys should have known each other.

Would you speak up?

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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:10
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
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You apparently don't understand that Godwin's Law was stated some years ago (by one Mike Godwin) as something of a joke. I think he only expended a brain cell or two in mentioning it.

I'll spend one or two in saying...Lighten Up.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:20
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 750
Well, maybe my post was not a nice joke, but I was using irony too...

Roy hudd had a valid point concerning age and rules, to which he was replied the famous "Golwin's law".
Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum form.[4] The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:24
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Posts: 2,089
The error was most likely picked up as part of a SAFA inspection and would have been found by one carried out anywhere in Europe.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:25
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 876
but I was using irony too...
i'd call it hyperventilation, not irony.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:28
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 750
You call it what you want.

Thing is that I would like to see the facts (and something better than the Goldwin's law joke) that would back up a rule that says we cannot paire 2 60 years old pilots.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 05:57
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: In front of the fridge, rescuing a trapped can of beer
Posts: 13
What are all the stringent medical checks for one must ask?
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 06:48
  #34 (permalink)  
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Posts: 8,153
Alright, let's make it 80.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 09:56
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edinburgh and 3C
Age: 69
Posts: 195
WTF is age racism??? Are different ages of different races by definition? If you're concerned about ageism, then say so, but don't hijack the language just to make an impact.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 10:34
  #36 (permalink)  
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well said Mangus. Technically its Jeunism though.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 10:45
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 750
Speaking about language impact...

Somebody who can pass an honest sim check and medical check shouldn't be prevented from flying solely because of his age. It is called what you want, I let you the definition (it seems everybody has its own here?), however the fact it doesn't make any sense is the thing to focus on.

Many pilots fly with medical conditions, but they are allowed because they are young.

But 2 60 years old pilots without medical conditions considered dangerous (because it's about that right?) to the point they are forbid from flying by regulation? It doesn't make any sense.

If those 2 60 years old pilots were on board the AF447 instead of the 2 "young" unexperienced (nothing else than airbus experience) F/O at the controls when they crashed, there is a good chance many lives would have been saved.

Regulation is blind sometimes.
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 11:35
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: very close to STN!!
Posts: 523

that is a golden, untouchable valid point!

even if the mature pilot had been asleep until the G forces woke him up, he/she would have had a much better response than the wide awake but mentally asleep and myopic two at the controls then!

but the way it is going now.....when the computer fed pilots become our age, what might happen?
stator vane is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2012, 11:35
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: 31000FR
Posts: 60
Turn 40 degrees and intercept the subject, please....

which was, if the inspectors should ground a plane when rules are bended.

I am puzzled that one moment we cry foul when we encounter bogus pilots or airlines cutting corners on FDTL, training etc. and the next moment we ridicule the very people we have criticized for not being there when needed. These guys are then last, thin line of defense against unscrupulous managements trying to pressurize us to do things we really do not want to do...

The rostering computer not giving a warning???? Come on! The "DEL" button on a rostering computer is the most worn, and could the pilots not remember their age??

Is it wrong when the inspectors ground a bird with a faulty PFD and a clean tech-log? When no insurance certificate or OPS Spec can be found onboard? When no ICAO language certificate can be presented by any of the pilots?

Of course not......Let's appreciate that someone is supporting us in the struggle against the "lowest bidder" mentality that has become the peril of our industry.


PS: This has nothing to do with UK Security, who is just a bunch of morons with the problem that they don't know their own rules....
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 12:04
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 299
Three old Geezers!

A few years ago, I was sat in bizzo, positioning to LHR, when the Captain came back for a quiet word with me. He had just discovered that both he and the co-Captain were over 60. He appeared vexed.

We were about 3 hours into the flight at this stage. Being similarly blighted by age, I could only sympathise and take another sip of my pinot noir. Fortunately, my F/O hadn't hit the bottle at that stage, so he instantly became the flying F/O. Job done. Crewing face saved.
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