Air Blue crash was caused by Captain
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Autopilot disengages when pilot pushes on the sidestick harder than a certain threshold, furthermore in normal law with all protections available the AP will disconnect if bank angle is greater than 45.
Both flight directors are removed when the aircraft bank angle exceeds 45.
(Almost quote from FCOM). So bank angle of 54 may only be achieved without both AP and FD.
Both flight directors are removed when the aircraft bank angle exceeds 45.
(Almost quote from FCOM). So bank angle of 54 may only be achieved without both AP and FD.
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there is no contradiction. If you read the report again, after he finally pulled the heading knob and the plane turned RIGHT (shortest distance since his heading bug had been rotated to 086) the AP was turned off and then you got those rather wild changes in bank and pitch.
I think he even climbed for a while and then for no reason descended. Or at least that is what came from the DFDR.
I don't care for quotations only from the CVR/DFDR. The whole read-out should be there from take-off to impact in an annexure with a time-line. Furthermore, there are no ATC tapes which should also be in the Annexure. Since ATC is Air Force, I hope they are not trying to cover that part up. That would be a serious regression and raise doubts about other parts of the report. What a blow that would be.
Interestingly, there are people in Pakistan absolutely convinced even now that this is all a cover-up and that we will find out the real bomb-shell soon. They say there were some strange souls at the crash site before the rescue workers got there. Whoever they may be, what has that to do with the cause of the accident?
I think he even climbed for a while and then for no reason descended. Or at least that is what came from the DFDR.
I don't care for quotations only from the CVR/DFDR. The whole read-out should be there from take-off to impact in an annexure with a time-line. Furthermore, there are no ATC tapes which should also be in the Annexure. Since ATC is Air Force, I hope they are not trying to cover that part up. That would be a serious regression and raise doubts about other parts of the report. What a blow that would be.
Interestingly, there are people in Pakistan absolutely convinced even now that this is all a cover-up and that we will find out the real bomb-shell soon. They say there were some strange souls at the crash site before the rescue workers got there. Whoever they may be, what has that to do with the cause of the accident?
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[16 seconds prior to impact the aircraft showed a 30 degrees bank angle to the left and 15 degrees nose up attitude, that was decreasing. 10 seconds before impact the aircraft peaked at 3110 feet and began to descend again until impact.]
Report is released. It also includes quotations from ATC both by air and land line.
Report is released. It also includes quotations from ATC both by air and land line.
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yes, Sir, I remember that. Very strange late movements.
Panicked?
I meant the full read-out. It is normal and expected that it should be in an appendix with a time-line and any communications super-imposed.
I would also like to hear, with respect for the departed, the dressing-down the Capt. gave the F/O in his question-answer session in the cruise which evidently caused the latter such anguish.
The ATC part is also fragmented and selective. Maybe there is nothing there of interest but the tapes should be there in full.
I note, on reflection, that the 45 degree off-set heading at MAP for 30 is a timing manouver of 35 seconds including the turn which takes you out 1.4 nautical miles at 180 knots and well within "protected" airspace (if my memory serves me).
There is no indication on the CVR that clocks were pushed and confirmed "both sides". That should have been loud and clear.
Panicked?
I meant the full read-out. It is normal and expected that it should be in an appendix with a time-line and any communications super-imposed.
I would also like to hear, with respect for the departed, the dressing-down the Capt. gave the F/O in his question-answer session in the cruise which evidently caused the latter such anguish.
The ATC part is also fragmented and selective. Maybe there is nothing there of interest but the tapes should be there in full.
I note, on reflection, that the 45 degree off-set heading at MAP for 30 is a timing manouver of 35 seconds including the turn which takes you out 1.4 nautical miles at 180 knots and well within "protected" airspace (if my memory serves me).
There is no indication on the CVR that clocks were pushed and confirmed "both sides". That should have been loud and clear.
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Sir, or maybe, Madam?
How is this relevant to this dicussion which I am enjoying and learning from people far more expert that me?
We are all here with screen names (but valid e-mail's since we cannot register otherwise) protecting our privacy. People here do not want even their location on this planet known. "north south, everywhere, and anywhere"! Or something like that.
Please accept me for what I can contribute to this discussion, even if it is very little.
Let me just say I am interested in this accident and celebrate the day that Pakistan has published an accident report, however imperfect it may be, after 64 years of silence, thanks to the courts and the media.
It is late and even I, behind a screename, must sleep.
Good night.
How is this relevant to this dicussion which I am enjoying and learning from people far more expert that me?
We are all here with screen names (but valid e-mail's since we cannot register otherwise) protecting our privacy. People here do not want even their location on this planet known. "north south, everywhere, and anywhere"! Or something like that.
Please accept me for what I can contribute to this discussion, even if it is very little.
Let me just say I am interested in this accident and celebrate the day that Pakistan has published an accident report, however imperfect it may be, after 64 years of silence, thanks to the courts and the media.
It is late and even I, behind a screename, must sleep.
Good night.
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I would also like to hear, with respect for the departed, the dressing-down the Capt. gave the F/O in his question-answer session in the cruise which evidently caused the latter such anguish.
Now from the left sear and the CRM factor: sometimes you have to do with captains who spent their life intercepting localisers, after a training which they paid for somewhere in the States, and those individuals resent having to share the cockpit with something undoubtedly smarter, feel the need to make life miserable for this F/O coming from another world they have no idea about... (and yes, I was there also, at the receiving end)
They know they have to take advantage of their superiority now as it will be short-lived, and within one year or two the guy in the right seat will be performing better than they have been in the past 20 or 30 years (and in their case too much experience might be counterproductive, as they have been doing the same thing for so many years..)
so yes, a very small minority of those people are bullying ex-fighter pilots a little bit too much (during the first year, after that it's too late for them, until they get a new joiner again)
And all that can make a very, very silent cockpit (because you aren't going to start to challenge back you Captain, aren't you ?) and that's not good in some situations, as we all know...
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i already mentioned that i trained out of OPRN and fly in the middle east and pakistan based out of karachi and islamabad.
no one asked you where you are right now or your exact background. it was a general question as to have you ever flown in pakistan and are you a pilot.
you talk about culture of secrecy in pakistan which you want removed yet you demonstrate that exact same thing.
on that note, as a pilot i can simply say whatever the result of the investigations are should be kept to only the people who are concerned ie the aviation community. the reasons are easier for the aviation to community to deal with in the first place. you go try to tell a family that their father killed 152 people? the blame game is already in high gear here isnt it.
yes the crew were responsible, but in the name of transparency, its their families who will suffer.
oh well. its already done and their families are fighting to save the reputation of the crew.
lets see how that goes.
no one asked you where you are right now or your exact background. it was a general question as to have you ever flown in pakistan and are you a pilot.
you talk about culture of secrecy in pakistan which you want removed yet you demonstrate that exact same thing.
on that note, as a pilot i can simply say whatever the result of the investigations are should be kept to only the people who are concerned ie the aviation community. the reasons are easier for the aviation to community to deal with in the first place. you go try to tell a family that their father killed 152 people? the blame game is already in high gear here isnt it.
yes the crew were responsible, but in the name of transparency, its their families who will suffer.
oh well. its already done and their families are fighting to save the reputation of the crew.
lets see how that goes.
you must assume he/she has "lost it" and take over the controls.
It is an entirely different situation if the captain is reckless and intent on breaking the rules of good airmanship and in so doing risking lives. While there is no shortage of well-meaning advice on what to say to that sort of captain, I have yet to see in company standard operating procedures any firm directions on the physical method to be employed by a first officer if the captain refuses to listen to reason.
If the problem occurs on final approach to land and the captain is the press on regardless type of personality, then an unstable approach is one result. Short of hitting the offending captain over the head as a precursor to taking control, the other thing that is easier and less dramatic is for the first officer to simply select the landing gear lever to up at the same time saying aloud "GO AROUND CAPTAIN" That fixes the problem real quick until the next approach of course when tempers will by now be frayed. But cross that bridge when you come to it
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maajam
That's right, report stated on this stage maneuver was done in NAV mode, not HDG as prescribed. Furthermore, CF, the waypoint on final derived from FMGS (and used as referenced for building other PBD waypoints for NAV mode) was located on extended runway centerline 5 NM from threshold thus inherently bringing aircraft outside of protected airspace for circling approach.
I note, on reflection, that the 45 degree off-set heading at MAP for 30 is a timing manouver of 35 seconds including the turn which takes you out 1.4 nautical miles at 180 knots and well within "protected" airspace (if my memory serves me).
There is no indication on the CVR that clocks were pushed and confirmed "both sides". That should have been loud and clear.
There is no indication on the CVR that clocks were pushed and confirmed "both sides". That should have been loud and clear.
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Sir,
When a crew is implicated as in this case, the families always suffer and the immediate family suffer the most. This is not country-specific. It happens everywhere.
We lament that the dead cannot defend themselves. If you fly like this, you will be very dead and take a lot of people with you.
"Blame-game"?
Is there a dispute as to who is to blame? As far as I can gather, blame is being apportioned where blame is due. No one is challenging the findings of the report except a few individuals that feel that calling it "pilot error" is simplistic and a cop-out, or, in the case of the conspiracy-minded (which are in plentiful supply), a "cover-up" of darker forces at play. What those might be, I have no idea -- and neither do they.
Aviation matters only to be left to aviators? Excuse me?
Everone can and should be involved and be free to speak their mind. The Cabinet, National Assembly, Courts, Media and so on. They may not be terribly well-versed on the subject of commercial aviation and flight safety but they have the right to ask questions and get answers with the goal of making the system safer.
That is why I am here even if I am not a current jet-jock flying out of OPRN. I am here to learn from people obviously far more able than I, and to ask why, given the most sophisticated systems known to man at your finger-tips, and with all that training and all that experience, how and why this accident could happen.
Have a safe flight, Sir.
When a crew is implicated as in this case, the families always suffer and the immediate family suffer the most. This is not country-specific. It happens everywhere.
We lament that the dead cannot defend themselves. If you fly like this, you will be very dead and take a lot of people with you.
"Blame-game"?
Is there a dispute as to who is to blame? As far as I can gather, blame is being apportioned where blame is due. No one is challenging the findings of the report except a few individuals that feel that calling it "pilot error" is simplistic and a cop-out, or, in the case of the conspiracy-minded (which are in plentiful supply), a "cover-up" of darker forces at play. What those might be, I have no idea -- and neither do they.
Aviation matters only to be left to aviators? Excuse me?
Everone can and should be involved and be free to speak their mind. The Cabinet, National Assembly, Courts, Media and so on. They may not be terribly well-versed on the subject of commercial aviation and flight safety but they have the right to ask questions and get answers with the goal of making the system safer.
That is why I am here even if I am not a current jet-jock flying out of OPRN. I am here to learn from people obviously far more able than I, and to ask why, given the most sophisticated systems known to man at your finger-tips, and with all that training and all that experience, how and why this accident could happen.
Have a safe flight, Sir.
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Centaurus and Ten-Miles, thanks for the elucidation.
I thought (or read somewhere) that subtle incapicitation is taught in simulators.
So, I am confused. Either it is a well-defined set of contingent actions or it is a grey area which SOP's don't address in specific detail.
Ten-Miles,
Sir, I understand the CF way-point. However, please explain to me these mysterious PBD way-points that he asked his F/O to enter (contrary to approved procedures) into the FMGS.
I thought (or read somewhere) that subtle incapicitation is taught in simulators.
So, I am confused. Either it is a well-defined set of contingent actions or it is a grey area which SOP's don't address in specific detail.
Ten-Miles,
Sir, I understand the CF way-point. However, please explain to me these mysterious PBD way-points that he asked his F/O to enter (contrary to approved procedures) into the FMGS.
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Hi Maajam
You sound a wee bit like this chap Mekal from link below not sure though. I just wanted to know if you were a Pilot, because you seem to be flogging this issue to death as if you are fishing for information.
Maybe airplanes are getting much too sophisticated and automated for human beings to handle.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...lamabad-5.html
You sound a wee bit like this chap Mekal from link below not sure though. I just wanted to know if you were a Pilot, because you seem to be flogging this issue to death as if you are fishing for information.
Maybe airplanes are getting much too sophisticated and automated for human beings to handle.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...lamabad-5.html
Controversial, moi?
reinhardt, if you believe that former fighter pilots are smarter than civilian pilots then I would suggest that view is part of the problem, apart from the fact it is patently wrong.
I have flown with all manner of RAF pilots. 99% are perfectly competent and decent people. Some are exceptional and thoroughly modest. A very, very few, in my experience, are unbearably arrogant and, although they may have been ace fighter pilots, they were pretty dreadful civilian pilots.
Your post is a distraction from a far more fundamental problem which encompasses some deep and ingrained cultural issues some of which comes under the heading of CRM.
maajam
I find your reticence to state whether you are a pilot or not puzzling. It detracts from the value placed on your comments.
I have flown with all manner of RAF pilots. 99% are perfectly competent and decent people. Some are exceptional and thoroughly modest. A very, very few, in my experience, are unbearably arrogant and, although they may have been ace fighter pilots, they were pretty dreadful civilian pilots.
Your post is a distraction from a far more fundamental problem which encompasses some deep and ingrained cultural issues some of which comes under the heading of CRM.
maajam
I find your reticence to state whether you are a pilot or not puzzling. It detracts from the value placed on your comments.
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i think airbus pilots have a wrong view about flying with this model that this opinion is
not good and in some cases is dangerous that is:
computers and glass screens save you in last seconds !!!they think computers always
can control situations and prevent the accident.....
however its not only pilot error ;because airbus company is trying to eliminate pilots
and their rule in flight !!!
AS A RESULT for an airbus crash you dont need to structural damage -or -serious
engine failure but a autopilot problem can make serious problem for pilots because
as airbus company said:
THIS AIR PLANES IS FLYING WITH TECHNOLOGY.....
whats your mean man -is your mean that pilots are.....or they are pilot yet.?!!
not good and in some cases is dangerous that is:
computers and glass screens save you in last seconds !!!they think computers always
can control situations and prevent the accident.....
however its not only pilot error ;because airbus company is trying to eliminate pilots
and their rule in flight !!!
AS A RESULT for an airbus crash you dont need to structural damage -or -serious
engine failure but a autopilot problem can make serious problem for pilots because
as airbus company said:
THIS AIR PLANES IS FLYING WITH TECHNOLOGY.....
whats your mean man -is your mean that pilots are.....or they are pilot yet.?!!
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mtwittm
i know right?
You sound a wee bit like this chap Mekal from link below not sure though. I just wanted to know if you were a Pilot, because you seem to be flogging this issue to death as if you are fishing for information.
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I was, Sir, some time ago.
But suppose I was not. Why does that detract from what I say? Why does it diminish my credibility? I hope I talk aviation-sense, at least some of the time, and ask reasonable questions?
Surely, I am entitled to participate with members of this august forum from that stand-point alone, even as a lowly probationer?!
Do let me know if you think I am not and I will exit gracefully, with thanks for sharing your insights and expertise with me.
As for the author of the article, I don't know him personally but he is probably the only sensible and coherent writer on aviation matters in the country and I always read him. I don't know his background other than what is stated but he seems to be well-versed in the subject and often elicits favorable comments from readers. He also writes extensively on economic matters, a subject on which he is also very competent and highly respected (again based on readers' comments or articles which quote him).
The others who write on aviation-related matters are quite dreadful and even comments from the aviation authorities (the CAA) are amateurish. They are mostly retired former air-force officials from whom one would expect better.
There was a Letter to the Editor from somone residing in the Gulf castigating the CAA for a "third-rate" report. I do not share that view. It could have been better, and certainly longer than just 38 pages with more detail (full CVR/DFDR and maps and graphs), but it gets to the heart of the matter.
But suppose I was not. Why does that detract from what I say? Why does it diminish my credibility? I hope I talk aviation-sense, at least some of the time, and ask reasonable questions?
Surely, I am entitled to participate with members of this august forum from that stand-point alone, even as a lowly probationer?!
Do let me know if you think I am not and I will exit gracefully, with thanks for sharing your insights and expertise with me.
As for the author of the article, I don't know him personally but he is probably the only sensible and coherent writer on aviation matters in the country and I always read him. I don't know his background other than what is stated but he seems to be well-versed in the subject and often elicits favorable comments from readers. He also writes extensively on economic matters, a subject on which he is also very competent and highly respected (again based on readers' comments or articles which quote him).
The others who write on aviation-related matters are quite dreadful and even comments from the aviation authorities (the CAA) are amateurish. They are mostly retired former air-force officials from whom one would expect better.
There was a Letter to the Editor from somone residing in the Gulf castigating the CAA for a "third-rate" report. I do not share that view. It could have been better, and certainly longer than just 38 pages with more detail (full CVR/DFDR and maps and graphs), but it gets to the heart of the matter.
Controversial, moi?
Surely, I am entitled to participate with members of this august forum from that stand-point alone, even as a lowly probationer?!
But suppose I was not. Why does that detract from what I say?
How many non-pilots can really imagine what it feels like to lose situational awareness or have things happening so fast that you are playing catch-up, something we have all experienced at some point in our flying careeers whether as low houred private pilot or an experienced commercial pilot having a bad day!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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It really is bizarre. If you recall dear old Meekal going on about some (possible) home-made unofficial R12 procedure (and like 411A getting terribly confused about circling...). The planned use of 'Nav' might hint at this but I cannot follow the PBD points inserted. Maybe someone could plot them? It seems finally that the a/c was roughly paralleling the downwind track but in the wrong place. How they finished up with 3000fpm down, IMC with terrain warnings I just cannot understand. It seems to me that the Captain had completely lost any idea of where he was or what he was doing and it really was classic 'time to take over' time.