Air India Express' landing woes continue..
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i think it was a very smooth landing
After a very rough touchdown, the Boeing 737 aircraft hurtled down the runway only to jerk sharply as two tyres burst. One wing almost scraped the runway surface and the landing gear was damaged before the aircraft came to a halt near the runway end.
Add to that the swing caused by two burst tyres ( which wouldn't have happened on a smooth touchdown unless anti skid were disconnected and full manual braking applied at touch down!) would suggest that the touchdown was anything but smooth.
Just my opinion mind.
Obviously it will all come to light when we see the METAR though!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lowly SLF here but is .3 tonnes legal for landing fuel at an alternate? Al Ain closer perhaps?
Regarding the .3 tonnes figure I think you have missed the point. I don't fly a 737 but I'm going to guess that it burns about 40 kg/minute. So if you have 4.7t in the tanks (as this one allegedly did) and a 75 minute diversion you'll arrive with about 1.7t which will allow say 800 kgs for two additional approaches AND half at least 30 minutes holding. When you fly a plane for a living you have have a good idea of your endurance and rough idea of aircraft's performance in your head. The figures aren't complicated and most 11 year olds would be able to handle them. Having the rough'n'ready numbers means that when you bugger up reading a table, miss-type a value, incorrectly enter a route (which all of us do), you know that the answer you have just been given is rubbish. Also, if the systems let you down, you can go back to basics and still not be in trouble.
And while we are here talking about numbers, we mustn't forget that there are two people on the flight deck. Both of you should be cross-checking each others' rough workings. Plans for diversions should be really simple and explainable to the other guy. So when it starts getting marginal, both of you are clear about what will happen and will have confidence the numbers you have in front of you.
As for the 25 knot crosswind I'm afraid I can't see the reason unless the DGCA thinks that this either this company's pilots and/or its training are not up to scratch.
PM
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: High in the Sky
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
reverseunlocked,
You have to arrive at your destination alternate with what is known as final reserve as a minimum. This is enough fuel to fly for 30 minutes at 1500 feet above your destination alternate field in ISA conditions. Therefore you could land with 300 kilos but having that little fuel is too terrifiying to contemplate. 
It does depend on weight but the final reserve in a 738 is around 1000-1300 kilos or so.
Not really. As mentioned above the distances from SLL to AUH, AAL or MCT is roughly the same give or take a very few miles. AUH probably best as it has two independent runways.
V3
is .3 tonnes legal for landing fuel at an alternate?
It does depend on weight but the final reserve in a 738 is around 1000-1300 kilos or so.
Al Ain closer perhaps?
V3
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fdr,
They have been given a chance to learn ! Many! They had and have TREs and sometimes Fleet chiefs from the Western world: US/Canada, Europe, Australia/NZ! They learnt partially but now that the contracts of most of these high standards guy are ended, it’s back to the old bad habits and very low safety records. Many incidents happen!
Some people learn, some think they already know everything! See the results!
FBW390
They have been given a chance to learn ! Many! They had and have TREs and sometimes Fleet chiefs from the Western world: US/Canada, Europe, Australia/NZ! They learnt partially but now that the contracts of most of these high standards guy are ended, it’s back to the old bad habits and very low safety records. Many incidents happen!
Some people learn, some think they already know everything! See the results!
FBW390
Controversial, moi?
Corruption and competency are hardly limited to the sub continent
@FBW:
Hi. admittedly there are some groups that are much more efficient at entering retrograde habits, but it is hardly the unique character of the sub continent, they are just rather efficient in that regard.
Recall that NASA forgot everything they had learnt from the Apollo 1 fire, and repeated similar systemic failings for Challenger, then after a remarkable report on that disaster, where the administrator specifically states "he gets it...", they backslide into the same behaviour culminating in Columbia. Post Columbia, they "get it again..." Yeah, right.
Now that is mainly in regards to normalizing deviance, as postulated by Diane Vaughan, [the "z" is from the US..] but it also raises the observation by Feynman:
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
Roger that.
(I have used this many times, and I don't think it loses its fundamental truth by the fact that it is a fairly universal concept about hubris and the human condition).
Self delusion is a very human character trait. To consider it as being the sole domain on any one group is somewhat myopic, and potentially indicates an extent of delusion existing in the observer - observer bias in a rather off beat form.
Operationally, a system assumes that the problems have been overcome in a very short timespan, the "we get it...". After a very small sampling, we assume that the problem no longer exists, even if the behavioural traits are inherently risky. Risk doesn't equate to an immediate disaster, it just makes one more likely in the time domain. Added to this, the "just bad luck, could happen to anyone..." fatalistic outlook just makes it easy to assume that the system status is a "was always thus" condition.
Failure apparently is an option, and the aviation industry is staring down the barrel of escalation of the rate of catastrophic events, as we have allowed the competency of flight dynamics to be dictated by bean counters, and as a "profession" the majority of us (professional flight crew) have been at best laissez faire as to the decay, or at worst supporting it actively by providing the pavlovian response to the self interest that is inherent in providing DFO's/Chief Pilots and similar post holders charged with maintaining (or upholding? sounds like Dick Turpin...) standards.
"The people in the US as well as the courts of justice see the world as the result of individual failures. They think that if you find the individual responsible, you would solve the problems. But the problem is that if you take the responsible people out, new ones will take the job and social factors will just reproduce the behaviours and replicate the problems. America is a culture where individual achievement is everything. We consider that if you don’t achieve, you are responsible for your own failure. So looking beyond individual responsibility, to seeing what’s going on in the social context, how it works, what are the beliefs, the common culture, the political economy, etc.. is something we sociologists believe explains human behavior. So it is important to target the real root causes when things go wrong, whether we are talking about relationships, shuttle accidents, or terrorist attacks.We want to know why people make the décisions that they do. When it comes to organization mistake, misconduct, or disaster, the blame usually goes to low level workers and middle managers. Blaming them works for the organization. It deflects attention from top administrators who make major décisions about goals and resources that affect organization cultures, and falls upon workers, affected their actions. I call this « the trickle down effect ». To show the connection between élite actions, as they affect organizations and harmful outcomes shifts our understanding of what to do about the dark side of organization. And this at the core of public sociology. [Even if] it happens to be demonstrated « by accidents »."
Vaughan interview, California Management Review, Vol 39, N°2, Winter 1997
Theres a message in there for management, and for the public that entrust their safety in the systems that we have developed so far.
This is not even close to being a rant... There are some topics about ethics in aviation I would dearly love to expand on, but it certainly would become uncomfortable to many organisations.
The Merlot is starting to age, better get back to it.
Fly safe, and look after each other.
There is no contest between ones soft body parts and 500Kt impacts to the earth (5.9742 x 10^24 kgs), barely leaves a dent....
kind regards,
FDR,
Hi. admittedly there are some groups that are much more efficient at entering retrograde habits, but it is hardly the unique character of the sub continent, they are just rather efficient in that regard.
Recall that NASA forgot everything they had learnt from the Apollo 1 fire, and repeated similar systemic failings for Challenger, then after a remarkable report on that disaster, where the administrator specifically states "he gets it...", they backslide into the same behaviour culminating in Columbia. Post Columbia, they "get it again..." Yeah, right.
Now that is mainly in regards to normalizing deviance, as postulated by Diane Vaughan, [the "z" is from the US..] but it also raises the observation by Feynman:
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
Roger that.
(I have used this many times, and I don't think it loses its fundamental truth by the fact that it is a fairly universal concept about hubris and the human condition).
Self delusion is a very human character trait. To consider it as being the sole domain on any one group is somewhat myopic, and potentially indicates an extent of delusion existing in the observer - observer bias in a rather off beat form.
Operationally, a system assumes that the problems have been overcome in a very short timespan, the "we get it...". After a very small sampling, we assume that the problem no longer exists, even if the behavioural traits are inherently risky. Risk doesn't equate to an immediate disaster, it just makes one more likely in the time domain. Added to this, the "just bad luck, could happen to anyone..." fatalistic outlook just makes it easy to assume that the system status is a "was always thus" condition.
Failure apparently is an option, and the aviation industry is staring down the barrel of escalation of the rate of catastrophic events, as we have allowed the competency of flight dynamics to be dictated by bean counters, and as a "profession" the majority of us (professional flight crew) have been at best laissez faire as to the decay, or at worst supporting it actively by providing the pavlovian response to the self interest that is inherent in providing DFO's/Chief Pilots and similar post holders charged with maintaining (or upholding? sounds like Dick Turpin...) standards.
"The people in the US as well as the courts of justice see the world as the result of individual failures. They think that if you find the individual responsible, you would solve the problems. But the problem is that if you take the responsible people out, new ones will take the job and social factors will just reproduce the behaviours and replicate the problems. America is a culture where individual achievement is everything. We consider that if you don’t achieve, you are responsible for your own failure. So looking beyond individual responsibility, to seeing what’s going on in the social context, how it works, what are the beliefs, the common culture, the political economy, etc.. is something we sociologists believe explains human behavior. So it is important to target the real root causes when things go wrong, whether we are talking about relationships, shuttle accidents, or terrorist attacks.We want to know why people make the décisions that they do. When it comes to organization mistake, misconduct, or disaster, the blame usually goes to low level workers and middle managers. Blaming them works for the organization. It deflects attention from top administrators who make major décisions about goals and resources that affect organization cultures, and falls upon workers, affected their actions. I call this « the trickle down effect ». To show the connection between élite actions, as they affect organizations and harmful outcomes shifts our understanding of what to do about the dark side of organization. And this at the core of public sociology. [Even if] it happens to be demonstrated « by accidents »."
Vaughan interview, California Management Review, Vol 39, N°2, Winter 1997
Theres a message in there for management, and for the public that entrust their safety in the systems that we have developed so far.
This is not even close to being a rant... There are some topics about ethics in aviation I would dearly love to expand on, but it certainly would become uncomfortable to many organisations.
The Merlot is starting to age, better get back to it.
Fly safe, and look after each other.
There is no contest between ones soft body parts and 500Kt impacts to the earth (5.9742 x 10^24 kgs), barely leaves a dent....
kind regards,
FDR,
Last edited by fdr; 18th Nov 2011 at 11:12.
Always recall a phrase one of the shuttle pilots voiced:-
"You're trained to a much higher standard that you'll ever have to utilise on a routine flight" (or words to that effect)
Landing in a limiting crosswind should be a walk in the park for a well trained, experienced and competent aircraft commander - it's one of the basics.
METAR OOSA 030550Z 34026G37KT 9999 FEW015 BKN025 FEW030CB
BKN080 27/21 Q1005 NOSIG RH68 RMK03=
Runway is 07/25
"You're trained to a much higher standard that you'll ever have to utilise on a routine flight" (or words to that effect)
Landing in a limiting crosswind should be a walk in the park for a well trained, experienced and competent aircraft commander - it's one of the basics.
METAR OOSA 030550Z 34026G37KT 9999 FEW015 BKN025 FEW030CB
BKN080 27/21 Q1005 NOSIG RH68 RMK03=
Runway is 07/25
Last edited by fireflybob; 18th Nov 2011 at 13:22.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The skipper electing to perform an Autoland because he couldn't cope with the conditions is the indicator of his level of flying ability I would suggest.
A new captain? One that came up through the ranks and wasn't allowed to handle the aircraft as an FO?
I second post number three on this thread by Denti.
A new captain? One that came up through the ranks and wasn't allowed to handle the aircraft as an FO?
I second post number three on this thread by Denti.
AI express certainly have problems; well, teething problems when airlines proliferate without a good period of consolidation; thanks to wanton copy of the capitalist model foisted upon the Mother India.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bombay
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
further report in the times of india today
AI Express commander was found deficient during training - The Times of India
AI Express commander was found deficient during training - The Times of India
It would be fascinating if you could link fares to pilot experience. That is if you want the grey haired Capt with 25 years accident/incident free flying and the ready for command SFO, you had to pay an extra 50 USD.
I bet if there were any practical way to do this the old guys would never get to fly. I think 85 % of the flying public would willingly fly with the bottom of his upgrade class, barely met the minimum standard Captain and his 250 hour P2F FO whose training provider selected him for his ability to pay not his ability to fly; just to save the 50 dollars.
I bet if there were any practical way to do this the old guys would never get to fly. I think 85 % of the flying public would willingly fly with the bottom of his upgrade class, barely met the minimum standard Captain and his 250 hour P2F FO whose training provider selected him for his ability to pay not his ability to fly; just to save the 50 dollars.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 18th Nov 2011 at 22:16.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Preswick
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Possibly the stupidest non sequitur I've seen in a while, considering that the discussion at hand is landing a passenger aircraft within its operating limitations, or not, and why that task execution is, or isn't, an expectable level of performance for the fare paying public.
Big U ass of A pilots have problems too, going off the runways at Mid Way and Burbank ; out of the runway at Denver, etc
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Atlantis
Age: 60
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So called pilots from the western world blasting third world pilots are like grown up adults lambasting kindy school kids for messing up their times tables or spelling. Now there are adults who also have problems with arithmetic and spelling too!
Guys there's nothing to be gained by scoring points. Even the best operators in the world can have incidents.
However, what is significant is/are the reason(s) why a particular incident occurs. I don't blame the pilots - it's the "system" (or indeed the lack of it) that allows certain incidents to occur.
However, what is significant is/are the reason(s) why a particular incident occurs. I don't blame the pilots - it's the "system" (or indeed the lack of it) that allows certain incidents to occur.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Waitohi Road
Age: 61
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And: Namor, if an adult has arithmetic and spelling problems, normally, he is not a captain on a B737!
The ATIS indicates weather that should not have been beyond the ability of a normally trained and experienced crew. They certainly made a series of errors including attempting an auto land well outside the normal parameters and getting into a situation where they thought they did not have enough fuel to divert. It is therefore absolutely correct that the company has taken action and is reviewing carefully what happened.
Interesting is what it tells us about the state of play in India and no doubt many other rapidly developing aviation nations. Airbus, Boeing and the bean counters have for years attempted to deskill piloting and have made great progress. The irony is that when a situation slightly outside the norm occurs then pilots are much less able to cope.
We can all understand that India wants to dispense with foreign pilots as do no doubt China and most of the other places where they are employed. This incident demonstrates that they are obviously still required. I am not however holding my breath on anything meaningfully constructive coming out of this. Management will blame the pilots, point out that the last big crash happened with a foreigner at the controls and carry on as before.
Interesting is what it tells us about the state of play in India and no doubt many other rapidly developing aviation nations. Airbus, Boeing and the bean counters have for years attempted to deskill piloting and have made great progress. The irony is that when a situation slightly outside the norm occurs then pilots are much less able to cope.
We can all understand that India wants to dispense with foreign pilots as do no doubt China and most of the other places where they are employed. This incident demonstrates that they are obviously still required. I am not however holding my breath on anything meaningfully constructive coming out of this. Management will blame the pilots, point out that the last big crash happened with a foreigner at the controls and carry on as before.
Kalistan:
Attributing blame to capitalism being foisted upon "Mother India" remains an idiotic comment regarding whether or not an aicrrew can peform up to scratch. Pay close attention.
My condolences on your envy of America, which shines through in your wise acre second "point" in reply.
Next time, ace, try to read for comprehension.
The laws of physics don't give a flying fart what nationality you are, or I am. They apply to all airframes in a like fashion.
Attributing blame to capitalism being foisted upon "Mother India" remains an idiotic comment regarding whether or not an aicrrew can peform up to scratch. Pay close attention.
"... thanks to wanton copy of the capitalist model foisted upon the Mother India."
Next time, ace, try to read for comprehension.
The laws of physics don't give a flying fart what nationality you are, or I am. They apply to all airframes in a like fashion.
