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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

Old 27th Nov 2011, 17:47
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Ok most Indian students that attended a well respected TRTO knew everything in the manauls but could not put it into practice, and as such were sent back to the client airline as unsuitable.

I think my view is shared by pretty much any expat who has worked in India.. Nice individuals but for one reason or another do not have the correct skills.

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Old 27th Nov 2011, 19:55
  #102 (permalink)  
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rf744:
In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.
RF, that is applied risk management. The limitations are generally assessed as isolated conditions, (other than the belatedly introduced wet/x-wind condition). The PIC is charged with determining the risk at any moment, and ensuring that it is appropriately managed. It may be that the sum of multiple limiting near conditions are in the aggregate unacceptable. That is just good risk awareness and the decision to reject is good management.

The question with AIE IMHO is that the limit that is imposed by the company reflects either the companies recognition of deficiencies, or it raises undue stress on the decision making. A cross wind in isolation is merely a handling coordination exercise, where there is no shear present.
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Old 27th Nov 2011, 20:26
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.
ricfly744, on paper the conditions were acceptable but you were the person of the day. You assessed the situation and the momentary transient conditions dictated your wise actions. I call that superb situational risk management...I will fly with you anyday
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 08:35
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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PT6A,
Once again a broad generalised statement without any data to back it up.In my 26 years of experience have never thought of making such statements in a professional forum based on my subjective assessment.
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 10:59
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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320.... Have you flown in India?
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 11:58
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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A key problem in the continued development of any pilot, be they from the US, Eruoland, Oz, Asia or Indian, in commercial airline operations is directly proportionate to the captains the fly with. If their captains give them the opportunity to hand fly, as well as impart knowledge to them, their levels of competency will continue to improve. I offer my F/Os to hand fly the jet as long as they want. My F/Os get 3 of the 4 sectors every day regardless. If the F/O want the landing, the A/P is disconnected at 15,000í for the remainder of the flight... Automatics on or off, their option. At least on N/P approach is hand flown during one of their 3 sectors. Itís great to see the smiles on their faces and a sense of accomplishment and pride.

You canít expect a newbie to land on the centerline within 500í of the TDZ when they are released to the line. Again, itís up to the mentor in the left seat to help themÖ not spoon feed, but help them along.

I hope these captains in training help their future F/Os.
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 13:10
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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A key problem in the continued development of any pilot, be they from the US, Eruoland, Oz, Asia or Indian, in commercial airline operations is directly proportionate to the captains the fly with. If their captains give them the opportunity to hand fly, as well as impart knowledge to them, their levels of competency will continue to improve. I offer my F/Os to hand fly the jet as long as they want. My F/Os get 3 of the 4 sectors every day regardless. If the F/O want the landing, the A/P is disconnected at 15,000í for the remainder of the flight... Automatics on or off, their option. At least on N/P approach is hand flown during one of their 3 sectors. Itís great to see the smiles on their faces and a sense of accomplishment and pride.

You canít expect a newbie to land on the centerline within 500í of the TDZ when they are released to the line. Again, itís up to the mentor in the left seat to help themÖ not spoon feed, but help them along.


I hope these captains in training help their future F/Os.
Captjns I sincerely hope that one day when I am released onto the line I get a pilot as wise, thoughtful and helpful as yourself in the left hand seat! Well done Sir...you are few and far between and I respect you for your post, as do all the young F/O's that fly with you I am sure!

What many captains and experienced pilots forget is they were once in the same position as the F/O and all young pilots for that matter...
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 13:23
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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I think a big problem at play in the airlines of India is this... They are using the term cadet pilots..

But they are using this term when refering to people who have self funded their training, type rating etc.

The airline has taken on a LOT of low hours pilots from an unknow system of training that may of been conducted across the globe and a wide variety of training standards.

The end product in no way compares to a cadet pilot that is produced by the likes of BA or Lufthansa, where a young person is selected and trained by the airline to the airlines own system and standards (cost no object, to the individual at least)

This person will then go on to be a very good new first officer within his or her company...

The way things are being conducted in India in such vast numbers is a serious safety risk...

Captjns is very correct that every captain on everyflight should be teaching his/her first officer new skills and helping them along.

But this is not the place for well.. primary flight training to be taking place.

I would say a FO should be able to land on centerline and within the touchdown zone every single time.. Or they should not be operating a line flight with a line captain.

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Old 28th Nov 2011, 15:34
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Yes ,I have for many years!The issue here was that you started with "Indian Pilots" and then moved to TRTO & cadets pilots.All airlines may not manage their Trg as well as BA and Lufthansa do.However, the way most of these young F/O would progress has been well said by Captjns.
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 23:15
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Salalah can be a b*tch with the wind from the wrong direction.

Yes, we should all be able to land our aircraft at the max wind limit, problem is, that limit is not the same from airport to airport.
To all the aces out there, how much wind from the north would you be comfortable with if you fly into SLL? Can you say with confidence that you would be able to land in a 35-40 kt crosswind from the right on RWY 25?

No? Possibly? Never been there?

What about LHR 27R? 35-40 kts from the south?
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Old 29th Nov 2011, 02:37
  #111 (permalink)  
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I would say a FO should be able to land on centerline and within the touchdown zone every single time..
Every single time ?
Can you guaranty that you can do that yourself "every single time" ?
 
Old 29th Nov 2011, 07:49
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Can you guaranty that you can do that yourself "every single time" ?
No, but if it looks like I'm not going to I'll go around and have another go. I have to be close on 10,000 landings now and so far have about 15 go arounds to my name. But what's more important is that I'll NEVER get any negative remarks or curious questions from my company for doing so. However, I'd get a few for continuing, especially from the person sitting next to me.

PM
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Old 29th Nov 2011, 11:46
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly Piltdown....

Infact if I did land outside the touchdown zone it would place a big flag on the FDM....

Im supprised that Captjns also makes out that this happens quite often as I thought India had a 100% FDM policy.. Which would mean that in theory at least a lot of calls to explain why this was allowed...

Something that further complicates things:-

Lets take for example Jet Airways 737 fleet, because of politics within their pilots union SWIP, expats are NOT allowed to be TRI/E.

Many of the First Officers are not released yet they undertake line flights with a line Captain (not released because they are not legally allowed to takeoff and land) now say there was an incident what would your home authority say about this? You should not of been flying with them anyway! Remember that the DGCA cant authorise you to do something that is outside of the licence that they validated.

Many of the examples that have been used in this thread ammount to line training, so this becomes line training being given by a line Captain to an unreleased First Officer on what is supposed to be a regular flight....

At the end of the day its not on....

I know many of the expats in question hold TRI/E status at home, but thats not the issue because of the SWIP situation they are doing something that is not properly sanctioned by the airline... A few have had their fingers burnt because of this.

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Old 29th Nov 2011, 13:22
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.
that is what the dicussion is about. (at least from the point of view of a pax
-and ppl holder-). the operational limits define the border which mustnīt be trespassed but are no guarantee for safe operation when obeyed either. personal judgement of actual mix of conditions including personal emotional status is what is to be called professionalism.
i remeber a discussion here on t/o-abortion after v1 with statements like "t/o has to be continued in either case after v1". v1 just means that a later abort will end up in the fields. Actually in the case of an event after v1 quick professional judgement is necessary to decide if forcing the plane into the air might cause an even greater disaster.
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Old 29th Nov 2011, 14:33
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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v1 just means that a later abort will end up in the fields. Actually in the case of an event after v1 quick professional judgement is necessary to decide if forcing the plane into the air might cause an even greater disaster.
I seem to remember a TWA L1011 in JFK taking off on RWY13R... Flight 843

Introduction

Luckely no loss of life.

Last edited by captjns; 29th Nov 2011 at 14:43.
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