Air India Express' landing woes continue..
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Ok most Indian students that attended a well respected TRTO knew everything in the manauls but could not put it into practice, and as such were sent back to the client airline as unsuitable.
I think my view is shared by pretty much any expat who has worked in India.. Nice individuals but for one reason or another do not have the correct skills.
PT6A
I think my view is shared by pretty much any expat who has worked in India.. Nice individuals but for one reason or another do not have the correct skills.
PT6A
rf744:
RF, that is applied risk management. The limitations are generally assessed as isolated conditions, (other than the belatedly introduced wet/x-wind condition). The PIC is charged with determining the risk at any moment, and ensuring that it is appropriately managed. It may be that the sum of multiple limiting near conditions are in the aggregate unacceptable. That is just good risk awareness and the decision to reject is good management.
The question with AIE IMHO is that the limit that is imposed by the company reflects either the companies recognition of deficiencies, or it raises undue stress on the decision making. A cross wind in isolation is merely a handling coordination exercise, where there is no shear present.
In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.
The question with AIE IMHO is that the limit that is imposed by the company reflects either the companies recognition of deficiencies, or it raises undue stress on the decision making. A cross wind in isolation is merely a handling coordination exercise, where there is no shear present.
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In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.
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PT6A,
Once again a broad generalised statement without any data to back it up.In my 26 years of experience have never thought of making such statements in a professional forum based on my subjective assessment.
Once again a broad generalised statement without any data to back it up.In my 26 years of experience have never thought of making such statements in a professional forum based on my subjective assessment.
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A key problem in the continued development of any pilot, be they from the US, Eruoland, Oz, Asia or Indian, in commercial airline operations is directly proportionate to the captains the fly with. If their captains give them the opportunity to hand fly, as well as impart knowledge to them, their levels of competency will continue to improve. I offer my F/Os to hand fly the jet as long as they want. My F/Os get 3 of the 4 sectors every day regardless. If the F/O want the landing, the A/P is disconnected at 15,000 for the remainder of the flight... Automatics on or off, their option. At least on N/P approach is hand flown during one of their 3 sectors. Its great to see the smiles on their faces and a sense of accomplishment and pride.
You cant expect a newbie to land on the centerline within 500 of the TDZ when they are released to the line. Again, its up to the mentor in the left seat to help them not spoon feed, but help them along.
I hope these captains in training help their future F/Os.
You cant expect a newbie to land on the centerline within 500 of the TDZ when they are released to the line. Again, its up to the mentor in the left seat to help them not spoon feed, but help them along.
I hope these captains in training help their future F/Os.
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A key problem in the continued development of any pilot, be they from the US, Eruoland, Oz, Asia or Indian, in commercial airline operations is directly proportionate to the captains the fly with. If their captains give them the opportunity to hand fly, as well as impart knowledge to them, their levels of competency will continue to improve. I offer my F/Os to hand fly the jet as long as they want. My F/Os get 3 of the 4 sectors every day regardless. If the F/O want the landing, the A/P is disconnected at 15,000 for the remainder of the flight... Automatics on or off, their option. At least on N/P approach is hand flown during one of their 3 sectors. Its great to see the smiles on their faces and a sense of accomplishment and pride.
You cant expect a newbie to land on the centerline within 500 of the TDZ when they are released to the line. Again, its up to the mentor in the left seat to help them not spoon feed, but help them along.
I hope these captains in training help their future F/Os.
You cant expect a newbie to land on the centerline within 500 of the TDZ when they are released to the line. Again, its up to the mentor in the left seat to help them not spoon feed, but help them along.
I hope these captains in training help their future F/Os.
What many captains and experienced pilots forget is they were once in the same position as the F/O and all young pilots for that matter...
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I think a big problem at play in the airlines of India is this... They are using the term cadet pilots..
But they are using this term when refering to people who have self funded their training, type rating etc.
The airline has taken on a LOT of low hours pilots from an unknow system of training that may of been conducted across the globe and a wide variety of training standards.
The end product in no way compares to a cadet pilot that is produced by the likes of BA or Lufthansa, where a young person is selected and trained by the airline to the airlines own system and standards (cost no object, to the individual at least)
This person will then go on to be a very good new first officer within his or her company...
The way things are being conducted in India in such vast numbers is a serious safety risk...
Captjns is very correct that every captain on everyflight should be teaching his/her first officer new skills and helping them along.
But this is not the place for well.. primary flight training to be taking place.
I would say a FO should be able to land on centerline and within the touchdown zone every single time.. Or they should not be operating a line flight with a line captain.
PT6A
But they are using this term when refering to people who have self funded their training, type rating etc.
The airline has taken on a LOT of low hours pilots from an unknow system of training that may of been conducted across the globe and a wide variety of training standards.
The end product in no way compares to a cadet pilot that is produced by the likes of BA or Lufthansa, where a young person is selected and trained by the airline to the airlines own system and standards (cost no object, to the individual at least)
This person will then go on to be a very good new first officer within his or her company...
The way things are being conducted in India in such vast numbers is a serious safety risk...
Captjns is very correct that every captain on everyflight should be teaching his/her first officer new skills and helping them along.
But this is not the place for well.. primary flight training to be taking place.
I would say a FO should be able to land on centerline and within the touchdown zone every single time.. Or they should not be operating a line flight with a line captain.
PT6A
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Yes ,I have for many years!The issue here was that you started with "Indian Pilots" and then moved to TRTO & cadets pilots.All airlines may not manage their Trg as well as BA and Lufthansa do.However, the way most of these young F/O would progress has been well said by Captjns.
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Salalah can be a b*tch with the wind from the wrong direction.
Yes, we should all be able to land our aircraft at the max wind limit, problem is, that limit is not the same from airport to airport.
To all the aces out there, how much wind from the north would you be comfortable with if you fly into SLL? Can you say with confidence that you would be able to land in a 35-40 kt crosswind from the right on RWY 25?
No? Possibly? Never been there?
What about LHR 27R? 35-40 kts from the south?
Yes, we should all be able to land our aircraft at the max wind limit, problem is, that limit is not the same from airport to airport.
To all the aces out there, how much wind from the north would you be comfortable with if you fly into SLL? Can you say with confidence that you would be able to land in a 35-40 kt crosswind from the right on RWY 25?
No? Possibly? Never been there?
What about LHR 27R? 35-40 kts from the south?
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Can you guaranty that you can do that yourself "every single time" ?
PM
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Exactly Piltdown....
Infact if I did land outside the touchdown zone it would place a big flag on the FDM....
Im supprised that Captjns also makes out that this happens quite often as I thought India had a 100% FDM policy.. Which would mean that in theory at least a lot of calls to explain why this was allowed...
Something that further complicates things:-
Lets take for example Jet Airways 737 fleet, because of politics within their pilots union SWIP, expats are NOT allowed to be TRI/E.
Many of the First Officers are not released yet they undertake line flights with a line Captain (not released because they are not legally allowed to takeoff and land) now say there was an incident what would your home authority say about this? You should not of been flying with them anyway! Remember that the DGCA cant authorise you to do something that is outside of the licence that they validated.
Many of the examples that have been used in this thread ammount to line training, so this becomes line training being given by a line Captain to an unreleased First Officer on what is supposed to be a regular flight....
At the end of the day its not on....
I know many of the expats in question hold TRI/E status at home, but thats not the issue because of the SWIP situation they are doing something that is not properly sanctioned by the airline... A few have had their fingers burnt because of this.
PT6A
Infact if I did land outside the touchdown zone it would place a big flag on the FDM....
Im supprised that Captjns also makes out that this happens quite often as I thought India had a 100% FDM policy.. Which would mean that in theory at least a lot of calls to explain why this was allowed...
Something that further complicates things:-
Lets take for example Jet Airways 737 fleet, because of politics within their pilots union SWIP, expats are NOT allowed to be TRI/E.
Many of the First Officers are not released yet they undertake line flights with a line Captain (not released because they are not legally allowed to takeoff and land) now say there was an incident what would your home authority say about this? You should not of been flying with them anyway! Remember that the DGCA cant authorise you to do something that is outside of the licence that they validated.
Many of the examples that have been used in this thread ammount to line training, so this becomes line training being given by a line Captain to an unreleased First Officer on what is supposed to be a regular flight....
At the end of the day its not on....
I know many of the expats in question hold TRI/E status at home, but thats not the issue because of the SWIP situation they are doing something that is not properly sanctioned by the airline... A few have had their fingers burnt because of this.
PT6A
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In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.
-and ppl holder-). the operational limits define the border which mustnīt be trespassed but are no guarantee for safe operation when obeyed either. personal judgement of actual mix of conditions including personal emotional status is what is to be called professionalism.
i remeber a discussion here on t/o-abortion after v1 with statements like "t/o has to be continued in either case after v1". v1 just means that a later abort will end up in the fields. Actually in the case of an event after v1 quick professional judgement is necessary to decide if forcing the plane into the air might cause an even greater disaster.
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v1 just means that a later abort will end up in the fields. Actually in the case of an event after v1 quick professional judgement is necessary to decide if forcing the plane into the air might cause an even greater disaster.
Introduction
Luckely no loss of life.
Last edited by captjns; 29th Nov 2011 at 14:43.
