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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

Old 24th Nov 2011, 20:05
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The limits for autoland depend on which system is installed, we have 25kts cross for normal autolands and 20kts for OEI autoland.
Fair enough. I didn't know any 737 was capable of it, and would would rather watch a 737 attempting a 25kt crosswind autoland from the ground, to be honest.

One of the reasons for the limitations of my CAT3A 737 is the rudder. The autopilot does not use it, and just lands with the drift on. Having seen how the automatics cope on windy days, I'm not sure all huffing and puffing the autoflight system does (pitch power couple/autothrust/trim), can solely be laid at the feet of some box of tricks in the E and E bay.

For the record, my airline's limit for a manual landing on the 737 is 40kts, and I have had to do it, 3 times in a day sometimes. No heroics, but I wouldn't call it easy either. It's just what is expected of me, by my employers, and passengers, on occasion. Call me a control freak, but I'm not going to sit and watch the autopilot make a hash of it; the limits for autoland are always more limiting in the perf manual than for a man land, except for poor visibility, for which it was designed.
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Old 25th Nov 2011, 04:27
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Fair enough. I didn't know any 737 was capable of it, and would would rather watch a 737 attempting a 25kt crosswind autoland from the ground, to be honest.
You need the fail operational (CAT IIIb) auto flight system for that, which actually has a rudder actuator and does a very good job in crosswind situations (or OEI for that matter).

However there is of course the 40 kts crosswind limit for manual landings on wet and dry runways, narrow runway operation included, which we have to be able to cope with as well. There is the need to train it though, and apparently Air India Express worked its way around it by introducing a blanked 25 kts wind limit for its operation which precludes any special crosswind training.
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Old 25th Nov 2011, 09:53
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India Express worked its way around it by introducing a blanked 25 kts wind limit for its operation which precludes any special crosswind training.
Does that mean the pilots just plonk it on the runway sideways without attempting to remove drift because they do not train for crosswind landings.?
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Old 25th Nov 2011, 12:31
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Perhaps the Training Captains themselves need to demonstrate they are able to accomplish crosswind landings with winds up to the limits contained in their FCOM. Not in the simulator either and not with passengers so they are not placed in danger.

Other than in monsood conditions, it is hard to find crosswind conditions approaching the AIE imposed limits. Even with monsoon conditions, I've never experienced a crosswind component of more than 15 to 20 knots.
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Old 25th Nov 2011, 14:28
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Careful, I was accused of living a sheltered life by a so-called professional for having never landed with more than 30 knots crosswind component.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 04:59
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Now, a foreign so called TRE and TRI are coming who will teach us

The AIE management is now negotiating to get some foreign pilots from a small Europa country whose background is not yet clear, to teach us how we should fly. On the to of that, in that country there are so many Training organisations where pilots with least experience become instructors with one sim session only and without any given training to the student pilots. How long will our DGCA tolerate such a mass and how long will they accept foreign pilots with absolutely no experience in training. Indian DGCA should stop that and should train our instructor for us.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 11:08
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Ricfly744 lived to fly another day. Knowing one's limitations and acting accordingly is a sign of maturity an professionalism.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 12:32
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I had heard they were looking at Lufthansa Consulting..... They sure could teach your boys a thing or two!

If it is the case that they are getting LH consulting... Then use the time they are with you to learn someting....

Not to continue in the mess that is India

Ps. I think (hope) it is more than a case of teaching you to fly... There needs to a HUGE change of culture within Air India and Indian aviation as a whole. Until this happens Indian skys will continue to be unsafe.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 12:59
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FL380 is beating his chest from the highest mountain decreeing...


How long will our DGCA tolerate such a mass and how long will they accept foreign pilots with absolutely no experience in training. Indian DGCA should stop that and should train our instructor for us.




Fl380, your assertion about expats training in India without training experience is malicious, unfounded, and without merit. Before you post such an accusation, you had better have hard written and undisputed written proof, not hearsay fl380, but hard written undisputed proof. With an unfounded, unsubstantiated accusation such as yours, you, fl380, are living proof that there are more a$$es than horses to go around.

Fl380… I do agree with, and in the modern words of William Shakespeare, “An endorsement for one to train or check, an instructor nor check airman does not make”. That said there are some purporting to impart knowledge should not be doing so.

From the look at a previous post, AIE recognizes there is a deficiency in performance lies amongst some line pilots, and training staff too with aircraft handling in less than ideal conditions. Rather than rapping AIE, perhaps they deserve a bit of encouragement for their recognition with this problem.

If you look at the post above, perhaps AIE is being proactive to contract training captains who are experienced in the areas of adverse weather operations.

Anyway fl380, Tell this forum fl380, who within the DGCA do you deem qualified to instruct AIE pilots? And remember, you need to build your credibility by presenting the facts, and not supposition.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 13:14
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Politically it probably wouldn't be possible but why not arrange for a temporary exchange of pilots?

Send some of the local training captains and new first officers to Europe to fly with a well organised and proficient airline.

At the same time send some European training pilots to fly in India.

Am just brainstorming and no doubt others would come up with objections but until the training pilots are top notch (and I am not saying some of them are not) it's doubtful you will see an improvement in the overall standard.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 14:39
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Good intention and good idea. However crews would return from a much different environment and disciplines, back to an airline culture which crews have been ensconced for many years.

It appears, albeit unsubstantiated, AIE recognizes there may be deficiencies within their training and checking procedures. From a previous thread, and job postings on various job websites, AIE is seeking contract TRIs, TREs, and LTCs. This could be due to current crews moving into the 777 or 787 or other equipment, or they have a desire to improve the quality of their crews.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 15:52
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I now see that overseas airlines may invest in India without restrictions like before....

Maybe we will see some money and experts flow into the Indian aviation sector?

IGO had a lot of outside help when they set up shop...
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 17:34
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I once aborted a landing (in a B733) from about 20 ft AGL, in similar crosswind due to turbulence caused by a hill near by. I just could not be certain that I would not get another down drift after cutting back thrust to flare, and was considering the possibility of an uncontrolled bounced landing, if that happened. It was not nice. Diverted and returned 2h later after wind eased.

In another similar situation, this time in a B757, cross wind/gust was within limits, however: VOR/NIGHT/BLACK HOLE/ RAIN/Limit Cross wind +GUST/Short/downhill (RWY 32, Foz do Iguaçu - Brazil), at about 100' I just felt I was not confident enough to continue, and aborted. Second try, wind shear, another G/A. The FO got so nervous that he just could not respond to my instructions and set the CDU to the diversion airport. He was emotionally incapacitated. After landing in the alternate, we still had many hours duty time to return after improvements, but the FO said he was not feeling fit to continue. Duty pilot was called and did not push for the continuation, supporting the decision to cancel the flight, and send about 200 PAX to hotel.

In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.

Should a PIC force a landing even in conditions considered within operational limits if he does not feel comfortable? Looking at the ATIS/METAR at the moment, would suggest I was a failure as a pilot or PIC, as there was no reason to divert. Some times we just don't feel comfortable/confident, and the limitation may not be the wind or any other but our own, and that must also be respected. I have dared many times, been to the limit other many times, had done it again and again, but those 2 times, I just felt I couldn't do it.

Last edited by ricfly744; 26th Nov 2011 at 17:46.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 18:18
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Just to get some more information in to reduce the extent of negative feedback,there was no tyre burst.Two tyres deflated after landing and this aircraft was flown back to India after one day apparently by the same crew.The media in India,particularly the "The Times of India"can go disgustingly overboard while reporting aviation news.
The pilot must have been in a tight corner after two Go arounds but let us wait for the final report.
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Old 26th Nov 2011, 18:34
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Ricfly,

The answer is no. If its beyond your own limits, then divert. A call to a training captain/department would be the right move after some reflection. I remember landing as a pnf and afterwards the captain saying that was the limit of his ability, and if had got any worse, he would have thrown it away.

There's nothing wrong with what you did at all. Sounds like CRM was alive and well in the cockpit which is no bad thing.
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Old 27th Nov 2011, 07:46
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Indian Airlines operated B732s & NOT B731s

On the Topic.....Dont believe Everything you read in the Media....Await the Official report to Judge.
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Old 27th Nov 2011, 08:57
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I had heard they were looking at Lufthansa Consulting.....
Interesting, they already tried Lufthansa Flight Training for initial type ratings, but stopped that very very soon because the pass rate was way too low. Quite a high drop out rate, not because of academic knowledge, that was pretty much impeccable...
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Old 27th Nov 2011, 11:00
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Denti,

Maybe it is part of a set of measures to try and get them through IOSA? Which they have not been able to pass...

I agree most Indian pilots know the manuals word for word... But can they apply this and fly the line day in day out...... No.
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Old 27th Nov 2011, 14:30
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PT6A,
To be so definitive and say "most Indian" would be a harsh generalisation and immature statement to make.Does it mean that you have flown or had an experience with most of them ?
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Old 27th Nov 2011, 14:52
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I agree most Indian pilots know the manuals word for word... But can they apply this and fly the line day in day out...... No.
This is not something that is exclusive to Indian Aviation alone . This is how education is taught in India . All theory and no practical .

There was once a debate on this on how aviation education in India was heavily focused only on the theoretical aspects only and one of the graduates from the
" Premier Institutes of Flight Training " in India claimed that how much knowledge you had was what counted and not how you can fly

According to them planes today fly themselves and even a monkey can be taught how to fly a plane . It was how much theoretical knowledge you had that counts

Thats fact that you need maths and physics at the +2 level ( thats your last two years of school before you go to university ) in order to apply for an Indian DGCA CPL is evidence of this nature
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