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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

Old 21st Nov 2011, 17:37
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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I don't need facts or figures to determine one's ineptitude when an auto land is attempted beyond the AOM's limitation.

There is no justification of getting so low on fuel... Even if there was an erroneous number in the FMC. It is apparent this individual lacks the skills to perform manual computations.

The chap is a demonstration of how the system failed the pilot, his crew, and passengers.

I still stand by my statement that the public and his fellow crew members are safer with this chap on the ground.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 17:45
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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captjns: Thanks, I re-read a previous post and better understand your point.

The system is basically designed for foggy (read still air) conditions. Never mind being way beyond the autoland system's capabilities (15kt crosswind, 25kt headwind), I find it amazing that any 737 pilot would even attempt an autoland in such weather.
If that is what some people do, it is testament to Boeing that there are not more crashes, and an even worse testament to some people's lack of faith in their own abilities as a pilot.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 17:51
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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The limits for autoland depend on which system is installed, we have 25kts cross for normal autolands and 20kts for OEI autoland.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 20:58
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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The superheros and gifts to aviation from god sure like to come out on the crosswind discussions and about their abilities to handle them, no doubt with ease.

I've never had a situation come up with anything more than 30 knots at 90 degrees and don't have much interest in much more even though some of these machines are apparently demonstrated up to 38 knots.

Of course where were these demonstrations made. At a place with hills just upwind or your typical city architecture nearby. More likely in a flat remote location without a huge amount of mechanical turbulence.

I have a lot more respect for the types that decide not to land in the giant crosswinds rather than scare the heck out of the passengers and set off windhear alerts just so they can stroke their ego and convince themeselves again about how great they are.

Of course the incident on this thread is obviously a different story.

Last edited by JammedStab; 21st Nov 2011 at 21:47.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 21:08
  #65 (permalink)  
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JammedStab

Here here, thank you!!
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 22:11
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Yes... I agree with those who know their own limitations. What bothers me however, is how those who decide to go into business for themselves, and put their passengers and fellow crewmembers at risk. And why... because they have to complete their bloody mission.

Case in point... AA1420 into Little Rock AR. A sky God from the USAF who thought he could combat all odds. As all will remember that Dick Head's decision to continue the approach in to a TSRA was not the wisest choice.

Yes... there are schmucks abound in all walks of life from 6 of the 7 continents on the planet.

Perhaps if they put their charges needs first rathet than their egos, there would be less accidents to report... hmmm???

Last edited by captjns; 22nd Nov 2011 at 21:04.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 12:24
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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AIE

AIE's woes need to be explored further. Why do Indian captains (B737 typed and experienced) see AIE as their last choice of employment preference ? How can a govt. institution not manage to attract experienced folks from within the country and then have to resort to short-cuts to crew the aircraft???

Instead of looking at a captain not exercising good judgement on a limiting crosswind landing, one needs to dig deeper into AIE and see the trend .... make it a good place to work and you will get the experience , sadly that is not the case here.....

masalama.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 14:21
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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captjns: in only penguins could fly, we might have a solution to the schmuck problem.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 14:32
  #69 (permalink)  
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Yes... I agree with those who know their own limitations. What bothers me however, is how those who decide to go into business for themselves, and put their passengers and fellow crewmembers at risk. And why... because they have to complete their bloody mission.
I suppose I could extend what I was saying to include this. Not only should a Company put unnecessary pressure on a chap to land outside of his own limitations but the individual must not be too goal orientated themselves.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 23:32
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Countries and companies aside -
It is every Captain's job to be able to safely handle their aircraft to the certified enviromental limits of the aircraft.

No ifs, no buts.

Their training should ensure this.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 01:00
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Tankengine says..

Their training should ensure this.

The training and checking system established within carriers round the world needs to fixed.

The good old by networks is still alive and kicking by allowing those week. Over my 36 years, Ive seen arrogant no-talent bums paired up with special check airmen in order to ensure a passing event.

Ive also seen where week performers were pushed through the system with the thought This guy will improve as time goes by which leads to the good old by network.

This problem is not limited to India.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 09:32
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Angel Air India Express

Very patriotic comments but highly unprofessional ! No one imposes anything on anyone..Its a choice the "Mother India " has exercised with great deal of failure!! Lack of training and saving money has compromised training standards.Every Captain must be able to demonstrate handling the Aeroplane to its limits on the Simulator and that includes Xwinds/windshear/CATII etc .
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 10:41
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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jpsingh avers

Very patriotic comments but highly unprofessional!
It is nave to think that all pilots are able to perform to standard, as evinced by the captain in question.

Every Captain must be able to demonstrate handling the Aeroplane to its limits on the Simulator and that includes Xwinds/windshear/CATII etc
The captain has severe issues ranging from decision skills, situational awareness, piloting skills, and ignorant of aircraft limitations, past poor performance during training. The captain involved in this incident is a prime example of a weak link being pushed through the system do to nepotism, good old by network, or corruption.


Again, this problem is prevalent in carriers beyond the Indian Borders.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 16:34
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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A probie?

No business landing crosswinds of 65kts; wow, without option? Not if you had been exercising due diligence in monitoring weather at your destinations and all possible alternates, shouldn't be reading the newspapers enroute
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 22:51
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Crosswinds

What an arrogant statement in #63 by JammedStab. Maybe you have not encountered anything more than 30kts during your career. Must have had a pretty sheltered life! Also, you SHOULD have some interest in such a situation. What would you do if you were faced with, say, 65kts cross - without any option? I can assure you that when that happens, and you have no choice, you do not have much time to consider whether or not you are a 'super hero'. You were obviously not flying into LHR on the morning of 16 Oct 87. I did not have a jammed stab, but I did have a "Rudder Ratio" on short finals. Super hero did not come into it, but professionalism did (and ATIS was not much help).
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Old 24th Nov 2011, 10:04
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS

There used to be a flight safety notice - "Don't assume - Check!" The same should apply here - you don't know even a quarter of the story, and I was only one of all those flying that morning who were in the same position, when even a parked 747 was blown sideways into the pier.
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Old 24th Nov 2011, 10:11
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Prober,
Your alternate was also out of the wind limitation of your airline?
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Old 24th Nov 2011, 10:27
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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What would you do if you were faced with, say, 65kts cross - without any option? I can assure you that when that happens, and you have no choice, you do not have much time to consider whether or not you are a 'super hero'. You were obviously not flying into LHR on the morning of 16 Oct 87. I did not have a jammed stab, but I did have a "Rudder Ratio" on short finals. Super hero did not come into it, but professionalism did (and ATIS was not much help).
Prober
... and i always thought its professionalism which enables You to avoid a situation which is out of the aircrafts/ airlines limits. ... in this case by chosing the alternate airport ....
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Old 24th Nov 2011, 12:14
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Its sad that many dispatchers do not have the wherewithal to analyze wind conditions at canned alternates. They merely look at ceiling and visibility. On occasion there is the sharp dispatcher who reviews NOTAMS to ensure all lighting aids are up and running when conducting low visibility operations at both primary and alternate airports.

Pilots must be cognizant of these conditions where dispatchers are lacking. Wx and NOTAMS are equally important if enroute diversion is required. Not a good time to paint yourself into a corner.
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Old 24th Nov 2011, 13:16
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Prober View Post
What an arrogant statement in #63 by JammedStab. Maybe you have not encountered anything more than 30kts during your career. Must have had a pretty sheltered life! Also, you SHOULD have some interest in such a situation. What would you do if you were faced with, say, 65kts cross - without any option? I can assure you that when that happens, and you have no choice, you do not have much time to consider whether or not you are a 'super hero'. You were obviously not flying into LHR on the morning of 16 Oct 87. I did not have a jammed stab, but I did have a "Rudder Ratio" on short finals. Super hero did not come into it, but professionalism did (and ATIS was not much help).
Prober
a) I'm not sure why you would start talking about my life in this discussion.
b) I have more than once decided not to land somewhere due to wind strngth and direction.
c) I have never encountered a situation where the forecast wind was anywhere near 65 knots, but if I did, I would make sure that I had good alternates a reasonable distance away from 65 knots in any direction relative to the runway. A good idea even if it is only forecast at 30 knots even if alternate limits are not listed as being based on winds.
d) I have no idea what happened in Heathrow on 16 Oct 87, but apparently you think very highly of yourself for whatever you did after running out of options. 65 knots crosswind I suppose and no doubt at 90 degrees.
e) There is another post about not knowing even a quarter of what happened. Well tell us then instead of little bits and bites. Give us the details of route, city pair, A/C type, fuel, forecasts, enroute weather checks made, weather at other locations, when you realized that you were out of options etc. And finally, your landing and rollout technique in case it happens to us.

Last edited by JammedStab; 24th Nov 2011 at 13:48.
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