Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?
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When I fly into PFO I always keep the AP in and do the procedural ILS. We always seem to arrive when the sun is low in the west. Thomson a/c more often than not are screaming in behind me on a visual expressing a bit of frustration in their tone that the ezy is slow and in their way. When my autopilot takes the LOC I am reasonably happy I'm pointing at the correct bit of Tarmac. Going visual into PFO from the west to land west means dumping height if you actually want to make a shorter approach than the procedure prescribes, to achieve this I have heard countless Thomson a/c declaring their intention to go visual at 14000-20000 feet. In my mind this involves speed brake, high speed etc etc to get that height off so you don't have to wander all the way out as far as the procedure states. So high, fast, no radar cover and then you turn finals with a low sun on your face and increased workload.
More than once I have urged caution to FO's wanting to go visual early on and they have been might surprised at the viz when they turn finals as when tracking east in cavok and the airfield in front of you this problem is just not apparant.
I don't know if the crew in question were in this scenario at all, but I am well aware of the pitfalls of deciding on an early visual decision going into PFO and for that reason I'm afraid I continue to frustrate those behind me desperate to save 2 mins by asking for a visual approach at 15000 feet.
More than once I have urged caution to FO's wanting to go visual early on and they have been might surprised at the viz when they turn finals as when tracking east in cavok and the airfield in front of you this problem is just not apparant.
I don't know if the crew in question were in this scenario at all, but I am well aware of the pitfalls of deciding on an early visual decision going into PFO and for that reason I'm afraid I continue to frustrate those behind me desperate to save 2 mins by asking for a visual approach at 15000 feet.
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ezyd - as one of the 'visual' when I can' brigade in my time, I would point out that the procedure is still 'long-stopped' since it is (in my experience) - and indeed company policy - the 'norm' to have the ILS selected for the runway of 'intended landing' even on a visual as a safety check on one's vertical and lateral path, so it should be apparent?
However, you are absolutely right to point out the down sun/up sun phenomenon to the lads and lassies. Ah, takes me back to 420 knots at low level down sun over Germany in the haze and then turning 180..............................
However, you are absolutely right to point out the down sun/up sun phenomenon to the lads and lassies. Ah, takes me back to 420 knots at low level down sun over Germany in the haze and then turning 180..............................
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Beamer
yep, I have absolutely no issue with the ex military, I'm one too although non flying!! I do have an issue with some ex military who appear to believe that experience is somehow a counter to all things stupid. All experience is vaild to some degree or another, it's a question of how you use it.
And it's not my company.
I just happen to work for it. Slavishly at times it appears.
yep, I have absolutely no issue with the ex military, I'm one too although non flying!! I do have an issue with some ex military who appear to believe that experience is somehow a counter to all things stupid. All experience is vaild to some degree or another, it's a question of how you use it.
And it's not my company.
I just happen to work for it. Slavishly at times it appears.
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ezyd - unbelievable post. Good job you don't wear caps or your head wouldn't fit in it anymore. Are you the one pilot I have been dying to meet who has never put a foot wrong.....oh and before I finish i remember this cowboy of an ezy pilot who.......oh but that would not be doing the right thing to admonish a fellow professional.
PS - thought you'd like to know a couple of weeks ago I was 'cut up' by and ezy airbus when taxying out at pmi. He totally ignored the clearance he was given. That can't have been you though I guess.
PS - thought you'd like to know a couple of weeks ago I was 'cut up' by and ezy airbus when taxying out at pmi. He totally ignored the clearance he was given. That can't have been you though I guess.
Last edited by westie; 24th Jul 2012 at 17:52.
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To my detractors..... you are all so clever aren't you ... I'm so glad that I am leaving this site comfortable in the knowledge that it is in the safe hands of people who know everything there is to know about aviation and aren't afraid to say so. Goodbye and good riddance.
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I have to agree with the 'O' bird, even if it hurts. If you are doing a visual, you have the plates in front of you and all the navaids tuned.
If you see two strips that look like a runway, you land on the runway that the chart depicts, be it left or right. Regardless of a setting sun. A visual does not mean throwing the charts away and shutting down the navaids. And doing a visual into a setting sun might not be that bright either.
Either you are visual or not.
If you see two strips that look like a runway, you land on the runway that the chart depicts, be it left or right. Regardless of a setting sun. A visual does not mean throwing the charts away and shutting down the navaids. And doing a visual into a setting sun might not be that bright either.
Either you are visual or not.
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svhar - ah another perfect pilot, so pleased to meet you as well, i bow my head to you.
You know it's well known amongst the professional pilot community that if you think you've completed the perfect fligtht then it's time to retire as you're becoming complacent and possibly a danger. It's worrying in the extreme to read posts from ezydriver and svhar who seem to be exactly that, the perfect pilot. God help those who fly with you.
You know it's well known amongst the professional pilot community that if you think you've completed the perfect fligtht then it's time to retire as you're becoming complacent and possibly a danger. It's worrying in the extreme to read posts from ezydriver and svhar who seem to be exactly that, the perfect pilot. God help those who fly with you.
A tad late on the roundout, Hoskins
On some of the discussed above, an ex-Eurocypria SFO friend of mine did say to me regarding this discussion, that while with Eurocypria and on visual approach to said airfield in conditions of low setting sun, his captain of 20 yrs experience did line up with said taxiway also, until being reminded by my friend and going into 're-alignment' mode in due time. And those guys supposedly know that airfield like the back of their hand.
There is another aspect to this also. Ural airlines, Russians. The previous week, the Aeroflot Il96 came in for a heavy landing at LCA, bursting a few of his tyres, veering off the runway, and effectively closing the runway for a while as the mess, and Il96 were cleared up, I believe there was an emergency evacuation. The previous week, a Transaero 747 coming in at LCA, again in perfect early evening conditions, at about 100ft of the deck, aborted and did a go around for no apparent reason to the hundreds of people watching from the beach (including myself) . That was 3 out of 3 incidents/events to the Russians. As Boney M said in one of their songs, "oh those Russians !"
Last edited by cyflyer; 25th Jul 2012 at 17:00.
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Yes Westie I am that perfect pilot you have been dying to meet, I never make mistakes and caps are not made big enough to cover my knoweladgable brain.
Despite the matter that all I reported was based on nothing more than my experience of flying into PFO when I am usually surrounded by a large proportion of the Thomson fleet you have some how deduced that I am attacking my fellow pilot?
I reported nothing more than facts observed by me into PFO. Often I find myself in between Thomsons who have gone visual at an early stage and when I turn in to the ILS the viz has been crap.
This incident happened and unlike others I am not asking how on earth they could have made such a mistake, but I do see a trend of visual approaches into PFO from this particular airline, FACT, and the low sun causes issues FACT, a Thomson a/c landed on the taxi way FACT. Am I incapable of making a mistake, make them every day, FACT. Knowing the problems with PFO I pointed out how I tackle it to prevent such mistakes iny operation having learned from others missfortunes and advice FACT.
If passing this on in trying to answer the questions about why this continues to happen and what we can do about it harms you I can only assume you have a fragile ego and don't take well to a bit of frank discussion that learns from others experiences.
The guys involved in this will probably have done much sole searching as to how they possibly could have done this. We try to break the chain of events, this event may well have commenced at the point "tell them we are visual" was muttered in the flight deck or it might not have.
Either way it gives us all the opportunity to learn from it and I am grateful for that, you clearly want to pick a fight.
I would suggest your post has said more about you than mine did about me.
Thank you for reminding me why I never post on here much these days though.
My children could have provided me with the response you did.
Despite the matter that all I reported was based on nothing more than my experience of flying into PFO when I am usually surrounded by a large proportion of the Thomson fleet you have some how deduced that I am attacking my fellow pilot?
I reported nothing more than facts observed by me into PFO. Often I find myself in between Thomsons who have gone visual at an early stage and when I turn in to the ILS the viz has been crap.
This incident happened and unlike others I am not asking how on earth they could have made such a mistake, but I do see a trend of visual approaches into PFO from this particular airline, FACT, and the low sun causes issues FACT, a Thomson a/c landed on the taxi way FACT. Am I incapable of making a mistake, make them every day, FACT. Knowing the problems with PFO I pointed out how I tackle it to prevent such mistakes iny operation having learned from others missfortunes and advice FACT.
If passing this on in trying to answer the questions about why this continues to happen and what we can do about it harms you I can only assume you have a fragile ego and don't take well to a bit of frank discussion that learns from others experiences.
The guys involved in this will probably have done much sole searching as to how they possibly could have done this. We try to break the chain of events, this event may well have commenced at the point "tell them we are visual" was muttered in the flight deck or it might not have.
Either way it gives us all the opportunity to learn from it and I am grateful for that, you clearly want to pick a fight.
I would suggest your post has said more about you than mine did about me.
Thank you for reminding me why I never post on here much these days though.
My children could have provided me with the response you did.
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Sounds to me like Easy has some professionals who do a little extra to make sure they are in the right groove. Any idiot can be unprepared, a real professional can enjoy a visual safe in the knowledge that he/she have backed themselves up against the unexpected Mr Murphy.
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After 20 years of going visual into PFO, and thoroughly enjoying it, I am amazed how it has suddenly apparently become such a difficult airport to operate into. Come on chaps. It's just one of these things. They happen every now and again in our business.
These thing will happen. 90% of us will say " There but for luck goes I" and try and learn from and hopefully avoid such incidents in the future. !0% will learn nothing from it and insist that it will never happen to them as they are too perfect. It is interesting that when Smudger found that the majority of posts opposed his opinion he threw his toys out of the pram and said that he was not going to play any more. That said it all. I know that the two guys, or gals, who were involved will have learned a lot and it will never happen to them again. I believe, also, that many others will have gained something from this. If I learned one thing from my 40 years in military and civil aviation, it was that I was far from perfect and that the day that I thought that I was, was the day to retire.
Safe and enjoyable flying to you all.
Safe and enjoyable flying to you all.
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Smudger and Ezydriver have both posted sensible, informative and valid points as experienced professionals flying this route. However because they have not closed ranks but chosen to challenge the opinions of those defending the original mishap as one of those things that can happen to anyone are now subjected to something more akin to the playground.
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We should also remember that it is not just PFO where we can have 'problems, as per my post about low flying in RAFG. ANY airport where the air is hazy and you go from down to up sun can catch the unwary. Having an approach aid (which SHOULD be SOP) to back up the 'visual' is vital and a quick shufti over the shoulder when downwind, back towards the field, before a final decision is made is a very good idea.
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BOAC
My exact thoughts on the right way to go about a visual approach, but I have noticed that pilots of some airlines are very reluctant to make visual approaches even on very good VFR days.
I can't help thinking that there is more than a little de-skilling going on in some airlines and this usually accompanied by aggressive use of FDM.
I can't help thinking that there is more than a little de-skilling going on in some airlines and this usually accompanied by aggressive use of FDM.
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EZYD
From my angle you are displaying some very positive CRM markers, don't let the ego of others influence you into thinking otherwise......
I am with your way of thinking...
From my angle you are displaying some very positive CRM markers, don't let the ego of others influence you into thinking otherwise......
I am with your way of thinking...
Having operated into Paphos myself, Ezydriver makes some very valid points and certainly does not come across as egotistical.
We all operate at different levels that we feel comfortable with, Ezydriver's 'line in the sand' may well be different to mine - whether opting for an ILS or visual should not matter provided we thoroughly brief and share our mental models.
Westie - your comments help no-one, the majority of us realise we can make mistakes, which I suggest is why Ezydriver shared his experience and methods to manage the threats at this airfield.
We all operate at different levels that we feel comfortable with, Ezydriver's 'line in the sand' may well be different to mine - whether opting for an ILS or visual should not matter provided we thoroughly brief and share our mental models.
Westie - your comments help no-one, the majority of us realise we can make mistakes, which I suggest is why Ezydriver shared his experience and methods to manage the threats at this airfield.
Last edited by JOSHUA; 30th Jul 2012 at 11:45.
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Joshua - maybe my comments don't help anyone however consider the comments from ezyd where he appears to be continually taking a swipe at TOM crews as a result of the unfortunate incident. I will say no more on this subjext as it;s pointless apart from....there for the grace of God go I.....incidents can happen to anyone and we should all learn from it rather than taking apparent pleasure from others misfortunes.
