Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?
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A reasonably balanced view of the situation here Landing on the taxiway at Paphos: not so difficult - Learmount
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Well actually a good few were not 737 type rated.
But I take the point, very well made.
What I was querying is Pinhead's assertion that there are
which seemed to be aimed at the command selection process or DECs
I was hoping for some expansion on this as I didn't think anyone got into the LHS just by seniority as there was a rather high failure rate if I remember correctly. Ability was required to meet the very high standard.
I believe that this is a human factors issue and not necessarily anything to do with experience.
One of the major reasons that T'Fly recruited DECs was to bring some recent 737 experience into the airline, and as a result some of the most experienced TOM 737 captains are DECs.
But I take the point, very well made.
What I was querying is Pinhead's assertion that there are
a few "low" experienced Captains at TOM who got in at the right time
I was hoping for some expansion on this as I didn't think anyone got into the LHS just by seniority as there was a rather high failure rate if I remember correctly. Ability was required to meet the very high standard.
I believe that this is a human factors issue and not necessarily anything to do with experience.
I've been following this and other threads on pprune mainly from my cell phone since I'm never home now...and it strikes me that it would be more productive for the pilot community to discuss preventive measures for this type of incident rather than enter a cyclical argument. I agree this type of error will manifest itself from time to time and everyone can make a mistake---personally I always {for takeoff and landing} confirm that the runway is correct and clear so far its worked-thankfully- but an examination of the issues at play would make this discussion far more productive as it is a free learning experience for us all...remembering that Delta means Don't Ever Land on Taxiway Again
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Alycidon
You are right about the failure rate, I think it stood at about 40%, so it is by no means an automatic thing with seniority.
There may have been some relatively low experience captains at one time, but there have been no promotions for over 4 years now, so even those people will be clocking the hours up by now.
You are right about the failure rate, I think it stood at about 40%, so it is by no means an automatic thing with seniority.
There may have been some relatively low experience captains at one time, but there have been no promotions for over 4 years now, so even those people will be clocking the hours up by now.
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You want more positive informations? Preventive actions? Here are some:
Before touching down always check quickly it is a rwy! It must have:
Threshold markings, touchdown markings, fixed distance marks, and a runway number!!!
There is nothing of that? The runway number is wrong? GO AROUND!
And in case of visual approach: check and re-check, do not assume! Use the ILS if it's working! Much better as well to perform a nice stabilized approach in the last 500ft. And again check the runway markings are there; otherwise you will be on a taxiway! Read the runway number: if it's not the good one: GO AROUND!
For take-off be as well extra carefull for the presence of these markings: identify the runway by it's number, magnetic heading, localizer centered! And at night it must have white lights only! If they are blue and green it's a taxyway!
Hope this helps!
Before touching down always check quickly it is a rwy! It must have:
Threshold markings, touchdown markings, fixed distance marks, and a runway number!!!
There is nothing of that? The runway number is wrong? GO AROUND!
And in case of visual approach: check and re-check, do not assume! Use the ILS if it's working! Much better as well to perform a nice stabilized approach in the last 500ft. And again check the runway markings are there; otherwise you will be on a taxiway! Read the runway number: if it's not the good one: GO AROUND!
For take-off be as well extra carefull for the presence of these markings: identify the runway by it's number, magnetic heading, localizer centered! And at night it must have white lights only! If they are blue and green it's a taxyway!
Hope this helps!
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Bless the pprune arm chair heroes. Who after downloading the latest Greek airport patch for their sims think they have the right to make a comment. The pilots made one hell of a mistake, one which they will never make again. But they landed on a strip of Tarmac bigger than the runway and all walked away. Lots of reasons why the cheese got lined up and I'm sure the truth will come out. What is more scary is the airport have done nothing since the last incident. My understanding is that safety is everyone's responsibility from the loaders to the drivers and all the bits in between.
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I am not a professional pilot, just a simple controller. Having watched this debate evolve I have a few thoughts to offer.
First, I feel for the crew - as has been pointed out, no one goes to work planning to make a serious error. I sincerely hope that they have had a fair hearing.
What matters now is that we - that is to say, everyone involved in this business - understand how an experienced and normally completely competent crew got suckered into making this error. By learning all of the lessons from this event hopefully other will see the holes in the cheese lining up in enough time to prevent a recurrence.
And without in any way pre-judging the proper investigation into the event I feel certain that every part of the system can make changes that can contribute to preventing recurrence.
As a controller I have worked at airports with similar traps and wouldn't like to guess at the number of times I've offered a brief comment to highlight a possible error being made. I've also worked at a very simple airport and had to prompt a few pilots to bear left a bit as they headed toward another airport about 15 miles away. My reason for mentioning this is not to point finger at pilots but rather to point out that we are all part of a 'team' with the same aim. And it wasn't all one-sided - there were a good few times when I issued a duff clearance and it was queried by the pilot just as I spotted my error, and a couple of times I'll admit when I hadn't spotted it. I was (and still am) grateful to the crews. In all these cases, one way or another, thanks were passed and I don't ever recall a hint of offence being taken on either side. And I could come up with a range of other similar examples where members of the 'team' contribute to doing aviation safely.
Trying to hang the problem on low experienced crew members (I only pick this example because it's higher up this page) or some other single factor is simplistic. More importantly it fails to take the opportunity to see every weakness in the system that contributed to the end result and so do what we can to fix them.
First, I feel for the crew - as has been pointed out, no one goes to work planning to make a serious error. I sincerely hope that they have had a fair hearing.
What matters now is that we - that is to say, everyone involved in this business - understand how an experienced and normally completely competent crew got suckered into making this error. By learning all of the lessons from this event hopefully other will see the holes in the cheese lining up in enough time to prevent a recurrence.
And without in any way pre-judging the proper investigation into the event I feel certain that every part of the system can make changes that can contribute to preventing recurrence.
As a controller I have worked at airports with similar traps and wouldn't like to guess at the number of times I've offered a brief comment to highlight a possible error being made. I've also worked at a very simple airport and had to prompt a few pilots to bear left a bit as they headed toward another airport about 15 miles away. My reason for mentioning this is not to point finger at pilots but rather to point out that we are all part of a 'team' with the same aim. And it wasn't all one-sided - there were a good few times when I issued a duff clearance and it was queried by the pilot just as I spotted my error, and a couple of times I'll admit when I hadn't spotted it. I was (and still am) grateful to the crews. In all these cases, one way or another, thanks were passed and I don't ever recall a hint of offence being taken on either side. And I could come up with a range of other similar examples where members of the 'team' contribute to doing aviation safely.
Trying to hang the problem on low experienced crew members (I only pick this example because it's higher up this page) or some other single factor is simplistic. More importantly it fails to take the opportunity to see every weakness in the system that contributed to the end result and so do what we can to fix them.
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If i read correctly the approach was a NONE PRECISION one.....wait im not finished..
It was i believe a VOR approach slightly offset,with the SUN in their face...
As someone posted[QUOTE]Hooligan Bill
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Simple answer: Leave runway approach and runway lighting on during hours of operation, therefore no chance of misidentification.
Leave these damn light ons,dont cut cost!!but greece...not really the time for extra costs i guess.
I feel for the crew and im sure they will for ever remember this mistake and this will never catch them again...
Briefing about PApis relative to runway is a goodnadd on to a brief... LIGHT system in VFR, yes VFR DAY LIGHT,we need lights with the sun in the face!
Yes it is a runway used as a taxiway..glad outcome was ok.
It was i believe a VOR approach slightly offset,with the SUN in their face...
As someone posted[QUOTE]Hooligan Bill
*
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Location: Box Hill or Bust
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Simple answer: Leave runway approach and runway lighting on during hours of operation, therefore no chance of misidentification.
Leave these damn light ons,dont cut cost!!but greece...not really the time for extra costs i guess.
I feel for the crew and im sure they will for ever remember this mistake and this will never catch them again...
Briefing about PApis relative to runway is a goodnadd on to a brief... LIGHT system in VFR, yes VFR DAY LIGHT,we need lights with the sun in the face!
Yes it is a runway used as a taxiway..glad outcome was ok.
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They flew an ils and then offset to the 'taxiway'?Sh,,,i t
aplogies, yes cyprus is not greece...no offense intended...its just full of people running away from justice
Loved the place when i went there...
aplogies, yes cyprus is not greece...no offense intended...its just full of people running away from justice
Loved the place when i went there...
Check what I said...
"Firstly, 29 has an ILS which was serviceable that day"
Your comment
"they flew an ILS and then offset to the 'taxiway'"
What do you think? Does that sound logical? No...
As far as "people running away from justice" - what does that have to do with this thread, and what the heck do you mean by that?
"Firstly, 29 has an ILS which was serviceable that day"
Your comment
"they flew an ILS and then offset to the 'taxiway'"
What do you think? Does that sound logical? No...
As far as "people running away from justice" - what does that have to do with this thread, and what the heck do you mean by that?
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I meant they flew an ils..so in order to land on the taxiway the must have done an offset when they decided to fly visually, an ils as far as i know is pretty accurate lateraly
Concerning my other remark, Cyprus does not extradite.
Concerning my other remark, Cyprus does not extradite.
De Facto
Rather obviously, it would appear the crew did not fly an ILS or this would never have happened.
Cyprus, being a full EU member certainly does extradite. Perhaps you are thinking of the breakaway TRNC state in the north, which only Turkey recognises. Not that Asil Nadir has anything to do with Thomson...
Rather obviously, it would appear the crew did not fly an ILS or this would never have happened.
Cyprus, being a full EU member certainly does extradite. Perhaps you are thinking of the breakaway TRNC state in the north, which only Turkey recognises. Not that Asil Nadir has anything to do with Thomson...
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So training flight?raw data practice?then yes maybe briefing was lacking...
Training flight? raw data? Maybe it was the case...Yes, you might align on what is not a rwy. But that highlights my point: on short final check you will touchdown on the touchdown zone markings! Why do you think they are there?
If they are not there at all? No rwy markings? No rwy number? GO AROUND! It was not a rwy!
You don't land on a piece of concrete because it's wider or longer than a rwy!
And this is real life safety, not armchair ppruner tips;
Training flight? raw data? Maybe it was the case...Yes, you might align on what is not a rwy. But that highlights my point: on short final check you will touchdown on the touchdown zone markings! Why do you think they are there?
If they are not there at all? No rwy markings? No rwy number? GO AROUND! It was not a rwy!
You don't land on a piece of concrete because it's wider or longer than a rwy!
And this is real life safety, not armchair ppruner tips;
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Just curious to know...why at this airport are the taxiway & runway the "wrong way around"?...ie runway closer to the terminal than the taxiway? Are there pylons/masts in the way on short approach to the "taxiway"?
Surely it would make more sense for the "runway" to be the strip of tarmac further away...otherwise all taxiing aircraft are going to have to cross the active runway each time for take-off and landing?
Surely just makes more sense from an airport operations point-of-view, as well as for a safety one.
Taxiway is also quite a bit longer than the runway..surely they could put that to good use?
CP
Surely it would make more sense for the "runway" to be the strip of tarmac further away...otherwise all taxiing aircraft are going to have to cross the active runway each time for take-off and landing?
Surely just makes more sense from an airport operations point-of-view, as well as for a safety one.
Taxiway is also quite a bit longer than the runway..surely they could put that to good use?
CP