Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?
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"
"Paphos airport it is NOT a tricky airport !! As captain in olympic airways for more than 22 yrs i landed at least 20 times, and also during night ! The incident is due to captain carelesness !"
judging by the posters age, a good example of previous generation arrogance that gave us lots of 'Pilot Error' accident.
I am a superpilot I can't be wrong....really?
"Paphos airport it is NOT a tricky airport !! As captain in olympic airways for more than 22 yrs i landed at least 20 times, and also during night ! The incident is due to captain carelesness !"
judging by the posters age, a good example of previous generation arrogance that gave us lots of 'Pilot Error' accident.
I am a superpilot I can't be wrong....really?
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Macdo - yep and the quote you mention is an example of an apparently experienced pilot who has had his finger up his ar*e for the last 20 years and is quite honeslty a liability. He should know better than to make such an idiot post as that, but then the world is full of idiots.
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Prober i think you summed it up best
...
All we can do is to reduce the probability but nothing will be ever a 100% perfect thing.
Such a post is a refreshingly honest statement compared to many others made before.
sh*t happens
All we can do is to reduce the probability but nothing will be ever a 100% perfect thing.
Such a post is a refreshingly honest statement compared to many others made before.
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@ Thrush
The experience levels in the Left Hand Seat as well as the Right are a cause for concern that the CAA must look at. Just because a co pilot has 3000 hours, there is a modern-day assumption that a Command is a god-given right. It's not.
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O.A. never went to Paphos!!! the last 20 yrs. not even as charter!!!
Paphos was the alternate but as I know, it was never used.
Paphos was the alternate but as I know, it was never used.
Last edited by PGP737; 26th Sep 2011 at 05:05.
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Runways are my business, as those of you that visit 'Tech Log' will know. I'm not a commercial or ATPL pilot, nor am I a human factors specialist or air safety investigator.
But as I look at it, he landed on a runway. It may be convenient to call it a taxiway or more likely it is called that as some weak military subterfuge, but that thing is a runway.
I went to the proper Google Earth and measured it as 45m wide, which is the civil requirement for that aircraft. The ends have been beefed up in concrete (which is good runway engineering for that application), and the western end has a proper runway turning node.
I'll leave the discussions about training, markings, local airport experience, and kinked instrument approaches to those better qualified then me. The comments about marking the two runways there as "L" and "R" make sense to me in a normal civil sense. The juxtaposition of the 'declared' runway and taxiway relative to the terminal is indeed there. However I find that I understand the Greek engineering better from the perspective that they are clever and subtle engineers.
The length here (of the taxiwayrunway) is 3075m. This is not just a runway that they landed on, but a very serious runway that they landed on. And given its location, of serious intent. And of serious strength as can be seen from techniques which I will not discuss.
I don't think my point can materially help the Thomson pilots. I have learned something of Greek airports, both civil and military, and a little of their design and documentation approach. I would not expect anything to emerge on paper which confirms my assertion. But if it is some small comfort to the pilots, they landed on a runway.
But as I look at it, he landed on a runway. It may be convenient to call it a taxiway or more likely it is called that as some weak military subterfuge, but that thing is a runway.
I went to the proper Google Earth and measured it as 45m wide, which is the civil requirement for that aircraft. The ends have been beefed up in concrete (which is good runway engineering for that application), and the western end has a proper runway turning node.
I'll leave the discussions about training, markings, local airport experience, and kinked instrument approaches to those better qualified then me. The comments about marking the two runways there as "L" and "R" make sense to me in a normal civil sense. The juxtaposition of the 'declared' runway and taxiway relative to the terminal is indeed there. However I find that I understand the Greek engineering better from the perspective that they are clever and subtle engineers.
The length here (of the taxiwayrunway) is 3075m. This is not just a runway that they landed on, but a very serious runway that they landed on. And given its location, of serious intent. And of serious strength as can be seen from techniques which I will not discuss.
I don't think my point can materially help the Thomson pilots. I have learned something of Greek airports, both civil and military, and a little of their design and documentation approach. I would not expect anything to emerge on paper which confirms my assertion. But if it is some small comfort to the pilots, they landed on a runway.
As BOAC reminds us "those posting on this site may well not be whom they appear to be".
The poster who calls himself Serafim Kamoutsis says that he was an Olympic Airways Captain and that Paphos is not a problem stating that he had landed there 20 odd times in 22 years. Interestingly he gives his age as 79. He would therefore have had to retire 19 years ago so presuming he landed there in his last year of commercial flying he would have to have landed there first 41 years ago. From Paphos airport's website I see that the airport was built in 1983. He must have been landing in a field or on a road!
The poster who calls himself Serafim Kamoutsis says that he was an Olympic Airways Captain and that Paphos is not a problem stating that he had landed there 20 odd times in 22 years. Interestingly he gives his age as 79. He would therefore have had to retire 19 years ago so presuming he landed there in his last year of commercial flying he would have to have landed there first 41 years ago. From Paphos airport's website I see that the airport was built in 1983. He must have been landing in a field or on a road!
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OverRun,
if it is a runway, it should be adorned with the appropriate visual markings, it should display the correct lighting, and should have published approach/departure procedures. But you know all this, as "runways are your business".
if it is a runway, it should be adorned with the appropriate visual markings, it should display the correct lighting, and should have published approach/departure procedures. But you know all this, as "runways are your business".
Last edited by ZOOKER; 25th Sep 2011 at 18:46.
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Having been in a similar situation myself many years ago I can sympathize with the crew.
It is all too easy to make a mistake and everyone should remember you're never too old or too experienced to have an incident/accident.
I will never forget the stewardess who came to the flight deck after the flight to report all was ok.
We almost killed them all - and a couple more aircraft flying that same approach had a similar fate.
No casualties, no damage - but the sight of high ground and cliffs ahead when you should have been higher is sobering to say the least.
The company and the AAIB were accommodating but I will still remember the sight of the cliffs ahead and wonder how the
we managed to get in that situation?
The approach was changed and an ILS installed, but for the grace of God I'm still alive.
Fate is the hunter indeed and I personally feel for the crew.
These incidents, with hindsight and from the comfort of an armchair, seem incredible.
The old adage: thinking time 3 seconds, investigation 3 years comes to mind!
Whether it will be 'lessons learnt' or 'apportion the blame' remains to be seen.
I was 'lucky', 'fortunate', 'grateful', but I lived to fly for many years and NEVER made the same mistake again (or any other significant for that matter).
A friend said: He would fly with me knowing that I had erred and learned about flying from that.
I hope the crew in question obtain a similar fair hearing.
It is all too easy to make a mistake and everyone should remember you're never too old or too experienced to have an incident/accident.
I will never forget the stewardess who came to the flight deck after the flight to report all was ok.
We almost killed them all - and a couple more aircraft flying that same approach had a similar fate.
No casualties, no damage - but the sight of high ground and cliffs ahead when you should have been higher is sobering to say the least.
The company and the AAIB were accommodating but I will still remember the sight of the cliffs ahead and wonder how the
we managed to get in that situation?The approach was changed and an ILS installed, but for the grace of God I'm still alive.
Fate is the hunter indeed and I personally feel for the crew.
These incidents, with hindsight and from the comfort of an armchair, seem incredible.
The old adage: thinking time 3 seconds, investigation 3 years comes to mind!
Whether it will be 'lessons learnt' or 'apportion the blame' remains to be seen.
I was 'lucky', 'fortunate', 'grateful', but I lived to fly for many years and NEVER made the same mistake again (or any other significant for that matter).
A friend said: He would fly with me knowing that I had erred and learned about flying from that.
I hope the crew in question obtain a similar fair hearing.
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.. that other aircraft might well have been taxi-ing on
Plumbum Pendular
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When you read about this incident it's very easy to think "idiots" and "I wouldn't do that", it is a natural human reaction.
Then one day everything happens all of a sudden and you have made a mistake which potentially could have been disastrous, and now you are thinking "how the hell did I do that".
Serafim,
It may well be an easy airport but more often and not that leads pilots to being a little conceited and concentrate less.
Then one day everything happens all of a sudden and you have made a mistake which potentially could have been disastrous, and now you are thinking "how the hell did I do that".
Serafim,
It may well be an easy airport but more often and not that leads pilots to being a little conceited and concentrate less.
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Thomson landing on the taxiway
I personally think we should wait for the official report to be published into the circumstances of this particular flight.
It seems there are a number of flight simmers spouting off on here judging by some of the postings.
It should be remembered that the boys involved could be reading these posts as well.
Just my own views.
It seems there are a number of flight simmers spouting off on here judging by some of the postings.
It should be remembered that the boys involved could be reading these posts as well.
Just my own views.
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Pinhead, without wishing to drift off topic, the main reason Thomsonfly (remember?) had to recruit "a few "low" experienced Captains" was because nobody from mainline wanted to fly the 737, so the company had no option but to go for DECs who had not benefitted from long years in the RHS at Britannia gaining experience of BY's very demanding operation.
Now, is it relevant that a DEC (and I don't know who was driving) was involved and if experience is proved to be a factor (a big if), then who's fault is that?
Now, is it relevant that a DEC (and I don't know who was driving) was involved and if experience is proved to be a factor (a big if), then who's fault is that?
Last edited by Alycidon; 26th Sep 2011 at 09:31.
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Alycidon
One of the major reasons that T'Fly recruited DECs was to bring some recent 737 experience into the airline, and as a result some of the most experienced TOM 737 captains are DECs.
The captain involved in this incident is not one of them, by the way.
One of the major reasons that T'Fly recruited DECs was to bring some recent 737 experience into the airline, and as a result some of the most experienced TOM 737 captains are DECs.
The captain involved in this incident is not one of them, by the way.
I was flying in that part of the world that day although not at the exact time and we were substantially delayed by the greek atc strike. There were big CBs in the general area. Last time I flew into Paphos we were offered a visual. It would make sense that they accepted one wanting to get on with things and lined up on the taxiway which is substantially brighter and where you might expect the runway to be. Turning final on a visual you could easily miss the strange ILS indication. I think we can all learn from this one.
