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TURKISH A340 SKID OF RWY AT VABB

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TURKISH A340 SKID OF RWY AT VABB

Old 5th Sep 2011, 02:35
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Nice to work with a professional!
My arrangements with ATC is that they don't fly my airplanes, and I don't control their airplanes... an arrangement that has worked and will continue to do so until I retire.

PS... some of the best controllers I've dealt with are within London Control and the London TMA Spot on about 99.999% of the time.
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 03:19
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Understand that BOM main rwy 27 now open for normal ops after 3 days.
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 11:47
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Yes! 09-27 is operational again after 3 looonnng 'Delay' days.

@Speed Freak: Turkish brings in the A340 frequently into BOM, for 2-3 years now, many of the times this Star Alliance Livery. I don't know how they could have gone wrong this time. Whats all the more baffling is that the A340 got stuck in mud between N7 and N8, but nowhere close to both!

Photos: Airbus A340-311 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 13:03
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Leadsled - Sarcasm, in response to post #4.
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 18:42
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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fly out of vabb 4 times a week, yet always seen the 330...pay special attention to tk cause i have travelled as passenger to istanbul for a very beautiful holiday...however, spoke to a few friends and they mentioned they have seen the tk 340 a few times...

as for them turning off the runway....could they have been confused by the rapid exit taxiway indicator lights....?
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 21:07
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Any taxiway instruction on landing is a "request".

No ATC has the legal right to determine the landing distance of the airplane and as such any "take taxiway ........." instruction should be responded to with "Roger" (I have received all of the last transmission). At no time is any pilot obliged to comply with such an instruction.

The current practice of Singapore ATC to issue runway vacating instructions whilst aircraft are in the landing roll is also of concern. At a time when an airplane is decelerating to taxi speed and engines are in reverse thrust, taxi instructions are an unwelcome and unneeded distraction.

ATC’ers around the world. Request a simulator observation and get yourself put in the seat for a landing role as the PNF. Amongst the myriad of checks and support calls have the instructor issue taxi instructions and see for yourself how distracting it is. Then repeat the exercise with a brake failure or an engine overtemping whilst in reverse.

I understand you are busy and I have the greatest respect for the service you provide, however, another 10 seconds won’t make a great difference.

In addition, the controller working Calcutta who thinks it is a job where you are paid by the speed of your delivery, SLOW DOWN.
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 21:14
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Don't try to expedite vacating with a heavy if it's rainy! Whatever the ATC says!
As mentionned, they don't fly our airplanes!
And don't worry: in BOM there's nobody 3 NM behind, it's always 10 NM behind even on an ILS ( 27 for instance )
And I've never heard of a serious Saab friction test in BOM! Nothing!
So when landing in BOM with rain with a Heavy: A/Brake Medium ( on Airbus ), positive landing, full reverse,
and you vacate when it's safe!
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 21:24
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Agent Mulder :
You are 100% right: it is silly and unsafe to give taxi instructions to an aircraft still in the process of landing.
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Old 5th Sep 2011, 21:50
  #49 (permalink)  

I Have Control
 
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Indian ATC tends towards the hysterical, although I know they don't mean to sound like that. The Western ear is different, in that it is not happy with loud high-pitched shouting. This is normal in the sub-continent.
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 09:39
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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ATC’ers around the world. Request a simulator observation and get yourself put in the seat for a landing role as the PNF.
If only!

Easy to say Agent M, now try and organise it!!! Managers are no longer interested in the extra costs of actually 'educating' their staff for the finer points of the job they're doing. Much like today's younger pilots actually!

Before the beancounters came on board our controllers had familiarisation flights and were also invited to join sim sessions. Now days it's all at own cost and in own time - if your lucky to find an airline that will welcome you!
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 18:03
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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RoyHuud

said: " Indian ATC tends towards the hysterical, although I know they don't mean to sound like that. The Western ear is different, in that it is not happy with loud high-pitched shouting. This is normal in the sub-continent. "

Spot on 100 times!

For those thinking it's a big deal landing in a wet R27 in BOM, what about
landing a heavy 773 on R14, downhill and shorter than 27, with braking action reported as medium, 2 AM, under moderate rain?
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 21:22
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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I've checked for the A332 at MLW and it's OK for landing on 14, with 10kts headwind; even when calculated at despatch ( with penalty ). But there is not a lot of margin;
The 773 is heavier and faster, it's a Cat D aircraft; not easy obviously;

fbw390
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 22:45
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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The 737-800 at 66.3 has been known to set land speed records with a 10 kt TW too.
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 11:59
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Exiting RW 27 at N7

A demo is worth a thousand words:
[YOUTUBE]
This was at just below MLW in a 773. We had a small 5kt tailwind which was pretty common on short finals to 27. We were aiming to vacate at N7 because next exit N8 was closed for WIP. The runway was dry and we had autobrake 4 selected.
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Old 12th Sep 2011, 09:54
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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27 is a nice long runway, until you check the actual landing distance which is considerably less. It's not grooved, no runways in India are. It is very slippery when wet. All runways in India are.

It's monsoon season. I'm waiting for the next one.
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Old 12th Sep 2011, 12:24
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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SORRY VASCO...

...but what's exactly your point?
what's the big deal (or catch) on your vid?
there's nothing extraordinary on it...
why 'fry' the brakes and tires, produce an unconfortable deceleration for the pax when you had the alternative to leave easily on N9?

cheers,

FF
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Old 12th Sep 2011, 21:53
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Fullforward.
Please refer back to posts 28, 29 and 41 which have points I agree with telling it like it is. For pilots who have no experience of VABB, I hoped the video clip would show them exactly what it is like including the ATC invitation (NB not instruction!) to exit at N7. VABB is a very different challenge in the monsoon. Remember the flooding of VABB in July 2005 anyone????

Last edited by Vasco dePilot; 13th Sep 2011 at 04:59.
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Old 13th Sep 2011, 10:28
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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woo hoo jet air 117 proved it !!! n7 is possible..no shit..it was a dry runway and n8 was closed !!
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Old 13th Sep 2011, 14:02
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Vasco-Nice video.

Don't I hear you say "on the brakes" though? So not autobrake 4, just very early manual braking.

Displaced thresholds are an eye-opener though aren't they? Particularly if you imagine heavy rain and reduced visibility. Careful planning and briefing always required.

An airline I worked for used to "tank" fuel into India, this meant that you landed just below max landing weight in a 744F. I remember landing into VABB in heavy rain at these weights, quite tight. By the way you had no choice in the tanking, you turned up for work and the fuel was already on (freighter). So you were committed to MLW landing regardless of the conditions.

Newcomers-always plan for the worst conditions.

O'Neill.
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Old 13th Sep 2011, 23:00
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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So tell me… what’s the stigma about using N9 after an all night operation especially in raining conditions? Isn't it easier on wheels and brakes and less obtrusive on the passengers comfort?

When one is cleared to land... the runway is their piece of real estate. During the approach before landing, ATC can request you to plan to vacate by a designated runway exit point. If the request exceeds either the aircraft’s or pilot’s limitation than the response should be unable.

When we cover our approach briefing, don’t we discuss the runway exit point?

During the landing roll ATC can request, but not demand that you vacate prior to the end of the last available exit point on the runway. If unable the crew’s response should be “Negative... unable.” I can assure you that there will be no investigation, no risk of loss of license or charges on incompetent airmanship or letter of intent to violate.

Familiar with LAHSO? Landing and Hold Short Operations for cross runway operations in the US? LAHOS would be announced on the ATIS with specific instruction to advise ATC on first contact if unable to comply. This permits ATC to properly coordinate aircraft to the same airport using crossing runways to sequence departures and arrivals in order to minimize traffic flows or disruptions.

If one waited until the last minute whilst on short final, then disruptions arise and a discussion may be expected between the pilot and ATC, again resulting with no repercussions.

At the end of the day, I don't provide unsolicited advice to ATC on how to control their aircraft, and I’ve never accepted their advice on how to safely operate my aircraft.
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