TURKISH A340 SKID OF RWY AT VABB
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Wet friction measurement
tribo, perhaps you forgot to stress the point that this friction testing is for runway maintenance purposes only and thus has little or no relevance to flight operations except where the runway is declared ‘Slippery When Wet’.
A better operational reference giving a wide range of information on the problems of reduced friction operations are at:-
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Executive Summary
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Main Body
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Appendices A-Z
A better operational reference giving a wide range of information on the problems of reduced friction operations are at:-
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Executive Summary
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Main Body
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Appendices A-Z
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Thanks for the informative links.
A design mu-value of .74 on a wet runway and rectification at .47? In your dreams!
But here we go again: On paper the Subcontinent is the safest, most advanced and well organized place in the world. A far cry from what you experience when going about your daily business (even when you have passed the Indian Class 1 medical
).
Old buggers like captjns know when to say no and do the needful; the worrying part is that with an inexperienced pilot community and a culture, where the CP can single out individual pilots by running the flight recorder, only few pilots dare use their brain when conditions are deteriorating. If the CP says "min auto brake, idle reverse, reduced landing flaps, RET N7", so be it, even when it defies law of nature.
Result: Too many near-mishaps that you only hear about in the bar during layovers. Because the culture also dictates that nothing comes out in the open unless it cannot be swept under the carpet....
T
A design mu-value of .74 on a wet runway and rectification at .47? In your dreams!
But here we go again: On paper the Subcontinent is the safest, most advanced and well organized place in the world. A far cry from what you experience when going about your daily business (even when you have passed the Indian Class 1 medical
). Old buggers like captjns know when to say no and do the needful; the worrying part is that with an inexperienced pilot community and a culture, where the CP can single out individual pilots by running the flight recorder, only few pilots dare use their brain when conditions are deteriorating. If the CP says "min auto brake, idle reverse, reduced landing flaps, RET N7", so be it, even when it defies law of nature.
Result: Too many near-mishaps that you only hear about in the bar during layovers. Because the culture also dictates that nothing comes out in the open unless it cannot be swept under the carpet....
T
I have not flown into BOM for a few years but RWY 27 was one of those runways that never seemed to have good braking action in the wet. Manila 06 was another one that use to worry me in heavy rain, watched a Fed-Ex DC-10 go off the end there. Also 27 BOM has a steep glide-path and unable to couple up the auto-pilot (heaven forbid).
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Turkish airlines forgotten in the rating last week?
btw, I am surprised Turkish airways didn't make it in the Air Transport Rating Agency's list of the safest airlines last week having had a good look at the creme de la creme of safe airlines...
Anyway thank allah this ended well.
Anyway thank allah this ended well.
Join Date: Sep 2009
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my views...
turkish normally operates a 330-200/300 into bombay and i was surprised to know it was a 340 that was involved in this incident...i feel this was a one off day that they got the 340....so maybe it was a crew who were coming into land for the first time into bombay...would have been holding for the runway to open after the scheduled runway closure for 30 min every night...must have landed and atc would have asked confirm able n7 (which they do with me everytime while i am abeam n7 and having no intention of vacating via that) ...they would have said no and would be feeling this guy wants us to vacate and looking for n8.....and in the confusion with the rain and a first time visit to a field and the rapid exit taxi lightings, they would have just taxiied into the grass thinking its the taxitrack....because that is exactly what it looks like...
as for the people doing reduced flap landings into bombay for fuel savings our company policy doesnt allow us for a reduced flap landing on glideslope > 3.15 degrees...(vabb being 3.3) and on wet/contaminated runways....
during my training days i would end up being too fast for n7 and too slow for n8 and then would here shouts of expediting by the atc......so now its idle reverse on a dry runway with very gentle braking for n8 always...i dont try for n7 unless there is a 10kt headwind and a very light 319....and for wet runway...i am not legally allowed to land...so......
turkish normally operates a 330-200/300 into bombay and i was surprised to know it was a 340 that was involved in this incident...i feel this was a one off day that they got the 340....so maybe it was a crew who were coming into land for the first time into bombay...would have been holding for the runway to open after the scheduled runway closure for 30 min every night...must have landed and atc would have asked confirm able n7 (which they do with me everytime while i am abeam n7 and having no intention of vacating via that) ...they would have said no and would be feeling this guy wants us to vacate and looking for n8.....and in the confusion with the rain and a first time visit to a field and the rapid exit taxi lightings, they would have just taxiied into the grass thinking its the taxitrack....because that is exactly what it looks like...
as for the people doing reduced flap landings into bombay for fuel savings our company policy doesnt allow us for a reduced flap landing on glideslope > 3.15 degrees...(vabb being 3.3) and on wet/contaminated runways....
during my training days i would end up being too fast for n7 and too slow for n8 and then would here shouts of expediting by the atc......so now its idle reverse on a dry runway with very gentle braking for n8 always...i dont try for n7 unless there is a 10kt headwind and a very light 319....and for wet runway...i am not legally allowed to land...so......
I've found BOM 27 "challenging" in the dry, let alone wet, not least because there always seems to be an unreported tailwind. I use brakes 3/4, full flap and full reverse, plus make sure we're good up to 15kts tail on the perf...
Treat Bom with the utmost respect. The very operation into Bom has a few of the holes in the swiss cheese model already lined up. ATC, 3.3 degree glide slope, reverted rubber both ends, displaced threshold. Low level smoke/smog ( from the cooking fires in the nearby villages). Add to this heavy rain and gusting Xwinds, tankering in, and there are only one or two more layers of protection before an incident / accident. Going in there, wet and heavy the landing is industrial, autobrake 4 or more (777) full reverse and into manual braking. Bring it rapidly down to taxi speed - don't even think of "rolling out" to the end as just when you need the brakes towards the end of the rwy to slow you from 40kts you encounter the reverted rubber from 09 !!
Well that's my thoughts after 22 years of Bom ops. Who can remember crappers corner??
Well that's my thoughts after 22 years of Bom ops. Who can remember crappers corner??
Last edited by CDRW; 4th Sep 2011 at 20:43.
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Being as a thy captain i have to correct one thing, Turkish airlines is using the A340/A330s as mix fleet and they are operated by the same crew members.so flying there for the first time is not the issue on this incident.
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Used to operate to BOM when N7 was 'C' and N8 was 'D'. Operated there some 25 to 30 years ago for a good many years. NOTHING's changed in all these years except the taxiway designators and a new ils frequency. And in all of these years operating medium to heavies,I have never ever vacated via N7. Whether instructed or commanded by ATC. ALways used full length or N8.
In min ROT required operations,it is easier to use a lower AB setting and actually let the aircraft roll all the way close to the next exit while decelerating manually a tad harsher than normal so as to reduce runway occupancy time. Worked for me all these years.
Of course,now on the Super I don't operate to BOM and don't need to worry about exits. What with Brake to vacate taking over..
In min ROT required operations,it is easier to use a lower AB setting and actually let the aircraft roll all the way close to the next exit while decelerating manually a tad harsher than normal so as to reduce runway occupancy time. Worked for me all these years.
Of course,now on the Super I don't operate to BOM and don't need to worry about exits. What with Brake to vacate taking over..
Who can remember crappers corner??
wafting into the cabin, accompanied by that delightful view of the mass early
morning crap up there on the hill in full view of all and sundry at 27 holding point.
(Those weren't the days.....)
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Who can remember crappers corner??
Seems like someone skids off the long runway at BOM every couple of years or so. Remember when thieves stole the ILS antenna a while back?
Also, the dogs and pedestrians on the taxiway. Or getting a GPWS from Trombay Hill on the approach to 32. Incredible India!
I hate it when we have to increase the a/b setting. That involves so much effort sometimes I think it's safer to go-around, rebrief the landing, and then start the approach all over again.
I know Bombay (I'm old fashioned) like the back of my hand ---- complying with ATC "requests" comes a long way behind operating the aircraft as it was meant to be operated ---- in the order of priorities.
Tootle pip!!
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Was there in the early hours this morning, surprisingly, BOM ATC coping very well, we had no holding going in, 12 minutes taxi to runway 14 for dept... I did see as we were taxing out 0330 local a Turkish A340 landing on 14