Article about lack of hand flying skills - FAA concerned

[bubbers44]

Barbiesboyfriend

Do what I did. We got acquired by a major airline so they had some pretty lame procedures so when in training I did their lame procedures but in the air knew I would never do them because they were not safe and I could endanger my passengers and crew. They had a major accident using those procedures years earlier. I retired at 60 using this technique with no problems so they were happy and I was happy. It is kind of screwed up to train differently from what you would do but I felt it was necessary to keep my job and protect my crew and passengers. Your experience puts you so far ahead of anybody getting hired now. You could move into the left seat of any airliner in a year with your experience. Good luck.

[Plectron]

I believe there are two completely preventable accidents coming.

1 - Airborn Fuel exhaustion due to the current company rules about FOD mixed with 1-timid 2-inept and 3-unlucky crews.

2- An attempt to land in conditions beyond the capability of either pilot but well within the aircraft's.

[bubbers44]

CNN had an article today about pilots losing their hand flying skills and new pilots never having them. Maybe the industry will wake up and insure these skills will be restored to what they were 20 years ago. You can not do this in a brief sim session. We need to encourage hand flying so we can return to the talent we had 20 years ago.

[Centaurus]

I well remember my first trip in a 737 Classic simulator. The simulator instructor was shouting "Follow the flight director" when it was bloody obvious the FD was giving erroneous information. Decades later where loss of control in IMC has become the major cause of aircraft accidents, it seems to me blind reliance on the FD has probably killed more people than it has saved.

[bubbers44]

Getting my initial IOE check out with a check airman out of San Jose, Costa Rica in a 757 transitioning from a 727 he had the FD all screwed up showing a left diving turn and I did a right climbing turn following the SID using raw data.
I didn't care because I did not rely on automation. He finally caught up so we were on the same page. We had to maintain 250 knots to 13,000 and he set in normal climb out of 10 so ignored that too.

Flying dinosaur aircraft keeps you in the loop so you don't blindlly follow automation. I am sorry those wonderful old 727's went away.

[galleypower]

Original study

Everyone is writing about that FAA study. But has anyone sighted the original study published by the FAA? It would be far more interesting to read the original source than just newspaper stuff...

[grahamcalder]

hand flying

I'm just a simple PPL (1973) and came across this discussion.

I am a dental/oral surgeon who must totally rely upon training/knowledge/experience/and hand(digital?) skills to be successful.

My airborne exploits are really little different (RV6) enjoy!!

However on a recent Airbus flight we had a medical emergency which needed a "soon" landing at Munchen. The plane was expertly flown to a smooth landing - rapid loss of height and 30* bank.

The pilot (like me) had a head of grey hair.

Question: was this hand flown (as I suspect) or a/p ?

[overun]

The next question would appear to be who should be responsible for one`s own handling skills ?
lf a plumber only ever works with plastic pipe connections and then stuffs up my copper pipe work l would blame the plumber, not his boss, for attempting the job.
Get`s interesting, doesn`t it ?

[el commandante]

@grahamcalder,

The descent until final approach was most certainly flown on automatics.

[Sky Wave]

Question: was this hand flown (as I suspect) or a/p ?

Agree with el commandante.

A medical diversion is the last time that you'd want to be hand flying.

It would almost certainly have been flown with A/P & A/T in until established on final.

You're probably high on profile with ATC giving you short cuts towards final approach, you have to programme MCDU, find the plates, brief the approach and G/A, tell the passengers what's going on, advise the company (time permitting) all whilst trying to manage the energy associated with the short cuts and ensure that you're stable and "in the grove" when you need to be. The last thing you want is the PNF working like a one armed paper hangar whilst this is going on.

[BandAide]

Question: was this hand flown (as I suspect) or a/p ?

Much better to let the airbus fly in NAV around the sharp turns so you can watch your speed (avoiding the low speed hook) and engage the approach in stable flight after the rollout. Mexico City 05R is a good example.

The autopilot wants to fly at 30 degrees of bank.

With a good, smooth pilot you generally can't tell whether the pilot or autopilot is flying. If it's really, really smooth it's probably hand flown.

[Harry Ainako]

Oh boy, this thread is gonna give all those insufferable braggarts who go on and on about how great their hand flying is. Face it, the world has changed! Aviation philosophy has changed. There is certainly a place for hand flying...where no PRNAV procedures required and with planes without the modern automation, or bush flying.

Most modern busy airspace require precision flying which the auto systems are required. I need not go into the details.

Anecdotal evidence; I did sim checks with old farts who swore on their great grandfather's names that they are flying aces who are 100% precise in flying manual.......most busted the limits of PRNAV SIDs and holding patterns. They screw up the proper use of automation and blame the whole world for it.

Come on folks; a delicate balance is required. There will always be situations beyond the capabilities of the automatics but there are also situations well beyond the self proclaimed perfect proficiencies of the manul flying aces.

[wingstwo]

If we can't fly it ourselves, let's not expect anyone else to do it for for us. Being honest to oneself. Anyways, guess this has been spoken enough. Wake me up, when the show is over.

[Montgolfier]

SLF question if you don't mind: If we accept the premise that hand-flying skills are on the wane across the industry, what options do we the travelling public have besides buying a ticket and hoping for the best? Do you think it's possible to identify airlines where the pilots - for whatever reason, be it amount/type of experience or company operating procedures - are IN GENERAL likely to have better (or less degraded) hand flying skills than at others?

For example, I soon need to fly between Manchester and Copenhagen. I have two options: SAS, operating their classic MD80 series, or easyjet (with the recruitment policies well-discussed on this forum) operating their A319s. Would I be justified in feeling, as a passenger, that I might be in better hands, should anything go t1ts up, with the old school SAS guys on the old school aircraft, than with easyjet and its relatively young, low time pilots in the glass cockpit? Or is that just a totally unfair and unjustified feeling?

I'd love to know what choice you industry guys would make if you were putting your wife/kids on the flight. If you tell me there's no real difference, I believe you. But I think if there is...even a marginal difference in favour of the legacy pilots, then it ain't worth that £20, £30 you save to go orange.

[westhawk]

Every day in life is a craps-shoot. You never know when your number will come up! Even Sully could have a bad day.

Seriously though, I think the difference in actual risk to your safety between riding on one Western European Airline versus another is probably rather insignificant. I'd ride on either if I had to because of work. But I understand your concern after reading some of these threads. I'd still feel better if I knew pilots with skills like Sully and Skiles were at the controls too. So I suppose you could find out all you can about any airlines you were considering riding with, then decide which ones make you feel more secure. It's the right of any consumer to vote with their wallet.

[Plectron]

HOLISTIC SAFETY RATING 2011
Published on 08/31/2011
From a dataset of the 100 most important airlines, exhaustive information (2009) was found in 44 companies in 2011. The top ten airlines 2011 (2009 data) from the holistic safety profiles are...
From a dataset of the 100 most important airlines, exhaustive information (2009) was found in 44 companies in 2011.

The top ten airlines 2011 (2009 data) from the holistic safety profiles are (by alphabetic order):
Air France-KLM
AMR Corporation (American Airlines, American Eagles)
British Airways
Continental Airlines
Delta Airlines
Japan Airlines
Lufthansa
Southwest Airlines
United Airlines
US Airways

Full details of the 44 airlines holistic safety rating are presented in the 2011 ATRA competitive report (see Solutions for professional)

[Centaurus]

Seriously though, I think the difference in actual risk to your safety between riding on one Western European Airline versus another is probably rather insignificant

Agree in principle. Except when it comes to that one in a million event where something goes seriously wrong and requires the captain to fall back on superb airmanship and pure flying (not automatic pilot) flying skills.

[goldfish85]

Sully had "0" time in the sim or real in 320 water landings.


Yes, but he had lots of landings. A water forced landing is a lot easier than a land forced landing -- no obstacles. The basic drill is keep the wings level and land as you would normally.

[bubbers44]

Airlines with seasoned pilots would be my first choice. The new startups might be fine but no one knows how much experience they have, especially the FO. They could be fresh out of flight school flying your airplane. The more established airlines probably don't have any pilots under 45 with tons of good experience. Air France obviously has low time pilots and the Buffalo, NY commuter crash did and we saw what happened.

If a Sully type qualified pilot had been in those cockpits they would not have crashed. The inexperience did both of these flights in. Pay a few extra bucks for your loved ones tickets and maybe it will send a message to Airlines to hire qualified people.

[westhawk]

Agree in principle. Except when it comes to that one in a million event where something goes seriously wrong and requires the captain to fall back on superb airmanship and pure flying (not automatic pilot) flying skills.

I agree! Hence my hedge later in the above quoted post that I too would feel better flying behind skilled pilots like Sully and Skiles. I'd prefer to share the skies with experienced and dedicated professional pilots who know their craft well. But even the typical product of the training mill manages to get the plane from A to B without incident often enough to satisfy almost everyone. Until something happens that is...