Chinese Pilot refused to give way to Qatar Aw. Emergency
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I remember going into JFK once in rock bottom CAT2 conditions. When taken out of the hold at Windsor Locks to commence approach on 22L (the active CAT2 runway) they put us on a strange intercept heading, and when I queried it the Yank responded with a rapid fire story that WXhadimprovedtoCAT1so22RwasnowactivelockoncontactTWRgoodday! !!
In the midst of our hurried re-brief and navaid re-set (still in thick clag) for the CAT1 22R (with its offset LOC and huge displaced threshold) I was blaming myself for not expecting this (when in reality why would anyone given it was crap all day and forecast to remain so) when I heard a Korean Air 747 being given the same instruction to follow on behind us.
There was a momentary pause and the Korean came back with 'Solly, Company procedure forbid this runway'....and much to my surprise the Yank said 'ok, turn left hdgXXX join 22L ILS'.
We scraped in on 22R, just feet away from a GA (CAT1 WX my ass). Afterward I blamed myself all over again for accepting this mad RWY change - but the trained culture at my brow-beaten little airline was 'just do whatever they say or you'll be told to GA'.
Yet the Korean got no such instruction.
Lots of lessons learned that day. I stopped being quite so flexible or co-operative with crap JFK ATC for one thing.
I don't know much about Koreans or their culture in aviation - but perhaps a sort of self-centered self-preservationism(?) is at work. With a healthy pinch of distrust of third world ATC.
Given the JFK experience, I wouldnt knock it too hard.
I guess the lesson for flying into China is - carry LOTS of fuel.
In the midst of our hurried re-brief and navaid re-set (still in thick clag) for the CAT1 22R (with its offset LOC and huge displaced threshold) I was blaming myself for not expecting this (when in reality why would anyone given it was crap all day and forecast to remain so) when I heard a Korean Air 747 being given the same instruction to follow on behind us.
There was a momentary pause and the Korean came back with 'Solly, Company procedure forbid this runway'....and much to my surprise the Yank said 'ok, turn left hdgXXX join 22L ILS'.
We scraped in on 22R, just feet away from a GA (CAT1 WX my ass). Afterward I blamed myself all over again for accepting this mad RWY change - but the trained culture at my brow-beaten little airline was 'just do whatever they say or you'll be told to GA'.
Yet the Korean got no such instruction.
Lots of lessons learned that day. I stopped being quite so flexible or co-operative with crap JFK ATC for one thing.
I don't know much about Koreans or their culture in aviation - but perhaps a sort of self-centered self-preservationism(?) is at work. With a healthy pinch of distrust of third world ATC.
Given the JFK experience, I wouldnt knock it too hard.
I guess the lesson for flying into China is - carry LOTS of fuel.
Algol:
.
Indeed!
Also agree about JFK ATC. Sharp guys doing a difficult job, yes. On the other hand, some of them need to cut some slack for the occasional visitor to God's own country;(yes, I know, this subject has been covered ad nauseam on previous threads).
However, you only have to listen to some of our good ol' USA brethren operating in overseas ATC environments to realise that a little hubris might be in order (i.e "foreign" ATC are usually a lot more accommodating and can be a lot less condescending!).
I'm sure a great contributor to runway incursion incidents over there is the failure to seek clarification of taxi instructions due to the fear of getting a good telling off, or even worse, barbed sarcasm....
I guess the lesson for flying into China is - carry LOTS of fuel
Indeed!
Also agree about JFK ATC. Sharp guys doing a difficult job, yes. On the other hand, some of them need to cut some slack for the occasional visitor to God's own country;(yes, I know, this subject has been covered ad nauseam on previous threads).
However, you only have to listen to some of our good ol' USA brethren operating in overseas ATC environments to realise that a little hubris might be in order (i.e "foreign" ATC are usually a lot more accommodating and can be a lot less condescending!).
I'm sure a great contributor to runway incursion incidents over there is the failure to seek clarification of taxi instructions due to the fear of getting a good telling off, or even worse, barbed sarcasm....
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Junyao Airlines is barred from hiring foreign pilots after "Mayday" incident.
Juneyao Airlines, who offers the highest salary for foreign pilots ($17,000 per month!!), is now called halted to hire foreign captains by CAAC.
I think I will choose another airways with stable performances and better management.
China Hands Out Punishment After Airlines' Bizarre Mid-Air Stand-Off - China Real Time Report - WSJ
From the previous news, we would know that this company has some problems on management, financing and even forget the most important thing "SAFETY".
It does have some good benefits (high salary), and sounds great like Non-Type Rate captain is accepted. But to have a better life flying with it, I can not imagine who worse it would be...
Let's review some news about Juneyao Airlines:
http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ao-spring.html
Juneyao; It has to be the worst of the pack, not even VOR holding is representing them anymore. No one is happy and they will have a hard time finding expat pilots in the future.
There were many stories about them, everyone lost touching them, from agencies to pilots. China is starting to have a very bad reputation at handling its expats. These two are not helping .
I think I will choose another airways with stable performances and better management.
China Hands Out Punishment After Airlines' Bizarre Mid-Air Stand-Off - China Real Time Report - WSJ
From the previous news, we would know that this company has some problems on management, financing and even forget the most important thing "SAFETY".
It does have some good benefits (high salary), and sounds great like Non-Type Rate captain is accepted. But to have a better life flying with it, I can not imagine who worse it would be...
Let's review some news about Juneyao Airlines:
http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ao-spring.html
Juneyao; It has to be the worst of the pack, not even VOR holding is representing them anymore. No one is happy and they will have a hard time finding expat pilots in the future.
There were many stories about them, everyone lost touching them, from agencies to pilots. China is starting to have a very bad reputation at handling its expats. These two are not helping .
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Code:
according the web, Juneyao captain is from South Korea and she used to be hotel receptionist before she decided to be a pilot.
How is that even a little bit relevant?
I used to stack Supermarket shelves, now I fly 777s.
If the said Captain felt it was against the wishes of her employer to go-around when instructed, that is the fault of her training, not her nationality, gender or former employment.
Wizofoz, it's up to you if you enhoy the so called "reading betweeen the lines" but I was just telling the fact rather than to offende anybody.
PS: Natinallities of the persons involved (ATC, Captain, 1st Officer) are definitely relevant to this case, there could be due the poor communications.
according the web, Juneyao captain is from South Korea and she used to be hotel receptionist before she decided to be a pilot.
How is that even a little bit relevant?
I used to stack Supermarket shelves, now I fly 777s.
If the said Captain felt it was against the wishes of her employer to go-around when instructed, that is the fault of her training, not her nationality, gender or former employment.
Wizofoz, it's up to you if you enhoy the so called "reading betweeen the lines" but I was just telling the fact rather than to offende anybody.
PS: Natinallities of the persons involved (ATC, Captain, 1st Officer) are definitely relevant to this case, there could be due the poor communications.
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I am PLEASED to see that it WAS Actioned so quick, none of that PR crap running between lawyers for months on end, for the actual incident to get lost in translations between a bunch of sharks.
Thank god it wasnt in the USA where im sure some of the pax would chased out of the airstairs by lawyers telling them that now have psychological problems due to the incident that just happened around them of which this was the first time they were learning of it !
What more evidence do the authorities need......ATC tapes, CVR !
We all know where a culture starts in a company so to hear the company is getting a slap on the hand aswell is actually quite refreshing.
The Captain, be it a man or woman needs strung up by their balls ( she must have some or a severe lack of brain matter )....to hear she may get the death penalty could be a bit extreme........but when in Rome make sure you know how the Romans play ball !
Thank god it wasnt in the USA where im sure some of the pax would chased out of the airstairs by lawyers telling them that now have psychological problems due to the incident that just happened around them of which this was the first time they were learning of it !
What more evidence do the authorities need......ATC tapes, CVR !
We all know where a culture starts in a company so to hear the company is getting a slap on the hand aswell is actually quite refreshing.
The Captain, be it a man or woman needs strung up by their balls ( she must have some or a severe lack of brain matter )....to hear she may get the death penalty could be a bit extreme........but when in Rome make sure you know how the Romans play ball !
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Wingunder;
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the crap that goes on in the US (my country BTW), but the Chinese do the same thing only a bit different. They band together in an angry mob, and demand compensation right then and there, on your aircraft. If they see it is a foreign Captain, the price doubles. you have to call security to get them off the aircraft. Ask me how I know this
God only knows what went on in this actual incident. The western press is bad enough. The Chinese press? Give me a break. For all we will ever know it was the ATC that screwed up, but thank god it was Qatar Airways, and a foreign captain at Juneyao. The Chinese can make up any crap story they want, blame everyone else, and come out looking good. This is typical "saving face", on a national level.
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the crap that goes on in the US (my country BTW), but the Chinese do the same thing only a bit different. They band together in an angry mob, and demand compensation right then and there, on your aircraft. If they see it is a foreign Captain, the price doubles. you have to call security to get them off the aircraft. Ask me how I know this
God only knows what went on in this actual incident. The western press is bad enough. The Chinese press? Give me a break. For all we will ever know it was the ATC that screwed up, but thank god it was Qatar Airways, and a foreign captain at Juneyao. The Chinese can make up any crap story they want, blame everyone else, and come out looking good. This is typical "saving face", on a national level.
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<<The licence of the South Korean captain of the Juneyao A320 involved in the incident has been revoked, and he has been banned from working in China. >>
I thought it was a lady?
I thought it was a lady?
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It was not the lady Korean Captain, it was a male Captain.
Juneyao already have 2-3 aircraft grounded daily due to lack of foreign Captains, hence the $17,000 pm salary.
Juneyao already have 2-3 aircraft grounded daily due to lack of foreign Captains, hence the $17,000 pm salary.
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Juneyao already have 2-3 aircraft grounded daily due to lack of foreign Captains, hence the $17,000 pm salary.
Uau!!! The salaries are expected to go higher in the near future !!!
Seem we will be back for the good old times soon....
Last edited by A-3TWENTY; 31st Aug 2011 at 20:09.
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The official investigation report said that was a Korean Capt but no mention of the Cpat. gender.
And the lady had an announcment on her local blog, denying it because she said she was on a normal break on Aug.13.2011.
And the lady had an announcment on her local blog, denying it because she said she was on a normal break on Aug.13.2011.
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When you declare a minimum fuel advisory, you wont have any priority yet. If you determine that you WILL or MOST LIKELY WILL land with less than final reserves (30min.) you declare an emergency for priority handling. MAYDAY is when you are going down or serious immediate danger or loss of life is present.
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I think the sentence on the Captain was a bit harsh. Banned for life from flying an aircraft in Chinese airspace. That means that he/she can not even fly for a non Chinese carrier operating in Chinese airspace, even say on its way to Europe. And may limit his/her career.
I think ATC (being the govt) is very upset about pilots dis-obeying direct orders six times in seven mins (if I read correctly). And they wanted to make an example of the pilot so others will think twice in the future. How much leeway do pilots normally have regarding whether to accept or deny demands from aTC?
No doubt it is very important to get out of the way of an aircraft that has declared MAYDAY in any country and not doing so is very unprofessional.
Still life time ban? How about five years? Ten?
I wonder what the USA would do in this situ or a western European nation?
I think ATC (being the govt) is very upset about pilots dis-obeying direct orders six times in seven mins (if I read correctly). And they wanted to make an example of the pilot so others will think twice in the future. How much leeway do pilots normally have regarding whether to accept or deny demands from aTC?
No doubt it is very important to get out of the way of an aircraft that has declared MAYDAY in any country and not doing so is very unprofessional.
Still life time ban? How about five years? Ten?
I wonder what the USA would do in this situ or a western European nation?
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There was much made about the "failure to communicate" a critical fuel situation a little over 20 years ago that led to the crash of an Avianca 707 on Long island while being vectored to the final at JFK.
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 707-321B HK-2016 Cove Neck, NY
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 707-321B HK-2016 Cove Neck, NY
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<<No doubt it is very important to get out of the way of an aircraft that has declared MAYDAY in any country and not doing so is very unprofessional.>>
Not sure what you mean by "get out of the way"? Are you suggesting that pilots should make their own decisions about getting out of the way? In a busy TMA that could be incredibly dangerous and highly UNprofessional. Perhaps it may be necessary in some places but where I've worked ATC takes the necessary affords appropriate priority and safe routeing for the emergency aircraft.
Not sure what you mean by "get out of the way"? Are you suggesting that pilots should make their own decisions about getting out of the way? In a busy TMA that could be incredibly dangerous and highly UNprofessional. Perhaps it may be necessary in some places but where I've worked ATC takes the necessary affords appropriate priority and safe routeing for the emergency aircraft.
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I think the sentence on the Captain was a bit harsh. Banned for life from flying an aircraft in Chinese airspace.
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I meant of course follow ATC commands, which this pilot refused to do and is now facing harsh punishment. He/she continued with the landing against ATC's wishes and got in the way of the Mayday aircraft in the process. Prevented the Mayday aircraft from landing a little bit sooner.
To repeat my thinking:
1. yes it was wrong to continue the approach and get in the way of an aircraft that has declared Mayday (for whatever reason good or unfounded).
2. yes he/she should be punished (although I believe this particular punishment to be unduly harsh).
3. just a general question: in what situation or situations can a pilot not obey ATC ?
edit: in this case pretty clear, abandon approach and give way to Mayday aircraft. But in other less critical ATC demands , is it possible for Captains to have any say?
To repeat my thinking:
1. yes it was wrong to continue the approach and get in the way of an aircraft that has declared Mayday (for whatever reason good or unfounded).
2. yes he/she should be punished (although I believe this particular punishment to be unduly harsh).
3. just a general question: in what situation or situations can a pilot not obey ATC ?
edit: in this case pretty clear, abandon approach and give way to Mayday aircraft. But in other less critical ATC demands , is it possible for Captains to have any say?