Koreanair A380 tail strike NRT
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Autoflight: "Go-around is a 4 letter word in some parts of the world. In some other areas where it is not, missed approach is."
I'd imagine that decorating a runway with debris from a stalwart effort would be a 'duck and cover' exercise for the fellows handing out demerits for an aborted landing.
I'd imagine that decorating a runway with debris from a stalwart effort would be a 'duck and cover' exercise for the fellows handing out demerits for an aborted landing.
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"Align" -- Abnormal Rwy Contact
ARC = Abnormal Rwy Contact (includes Rwy contact by tail, cowl, I/B Flap, hard Ldg, &ct)
A comment in message #45, dated July 23rd:
Maybe the ALIGN task conflates two, or three, differing pilot tasks?
AutoLand guys might consider the "ALIGN" function as the late de-crab YAWing motion (to match HDG with Rwy so that yaw-angle at touchdown is zeroed).
Pilots also sometimes must manually "align" or correct to COURSE (or to centerline) after a non-precision approach, or after an autopilot deviation near DH. This is the lateral L-R motion, toward centerline (but not overshooting). For FDR/FOQA/FDM, data-guys would consider this "alignment" as zeroing FDR's Loc-Dev.
?? For long-body airliner, in stiff x-wind landing with a planned Crab Angle, the "align" task might include visual line-up near the up-wind rwy edge -- so as to insure MLG does touchdown on concrete (??).
This ALIGN task (sometimes withOUT x-wind), while too-low, was a factor in other ARC-mishaps. NTSB recently released this case, where the pilot attempted a more perfect ALIGNMENT nearing DH -- then his correction overshot Centerline, touchdown with LHS MLG in the grass: thus achieving both an ARC (RHS I/B Flap and RHS wing tip), and also logging a USOS (LHS MLG off rwy at touchdown): DCA10IA015
There are three FDR plots available for the above mishap, AA-MD8 ARC, at 300' the Autopilot's tracking was a mere .28-dot Right, disconnected A/P, corrects, touched-down Loc-Dev shows .28-dot Left (photo evidence records that touchdown about on the Rwy's left Edge Line at 8000+ remaining, or 75' left of centerline), with the LHS MLG in the sod, just after the RHS Wingtip & RHS I/B Flap had contacted Rwy. [Interesting that Loc-Dev never exceeded the airline's one-third Dot triggering the "Go Around" call-out from a perfect FO-PM.]
Another example of L-R course correction inducing an ARC-wingtip was
ANC06IA054
More recently, during strong x-wind at NYC's KLGA, there was an ARC-Wingtip, after a displaced-final approach course, correction to centerline, x-wind; this also maybe more of a G/A phase wingtip-ARC (turbojet's spool-up time-delay?):
AA366 / 5May11 LGA MD83 N966TW Lndg-GoAround ARC- wing-tip
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/D_0506_N.txt
= = = = = = =
Another common ARC-result has been that the mishap-pilots were completely unaware that their landing had included any Abnormal Rwy Contact, or off-rwy touchdown. Thus, occasionally, the ARC-mishap wasn't recognized by the humans, nor recorded in the aircraft logbook. Extreme examples of this ALA- lack of recognition (really more of a task-fixation) are available, eg, on 26Aug64 a B707-331 N787TW landing mishap at Kansas City MKC , where both MLG impacted the dike just prior to the Rwy Threshold -- pilots were not aware that the MLG had separated from the aircraft prior to their landing on the Rwy36, pilots were slow to realize that the airliner couldn't roll during attempted taxi.
= == = = = = = = = = = == = =
A380 limit geometry (pitch & roll) , for ARC- #4 Engine, was cited in message #44:
ALAR Briefing Note
8.7 — Crosswind Landings [PDF 163K]
Figure 3 = plots of "Crab Angle / Bank Angle Requirement in 30-Knot Crosswind"
Read it yourself, 30Kt x-wind needs ~ 9degrees bank for a Zero Crab Angle at touchdown. Chart notes suggest mixing crab & bank for combination of 5degrees Bank with 5degrees Crab. [Therefore, the pilot would have a 2-degree margin of safety, is that enough?]
A comment in message #45, dated July 23rd:
"... Perhaps it wasn't so much a case of too much wing down, as it was a case of not being properly aligned with the runway ... trying to align with the centreline ... too late ... should have been going around ..."
ARC-Investigators, and even the ALAR Task Force, haven't yet sorted these "alignment" variables, nor gathered and labeled the various cases. Maybe pilots could provide investigators & FDM some guidance on taxonomy for those alignment variables. [Some of these ARC-investigations (employing professional investigators) have been disgraceful.]Maybe the ALIGN task conflates two, or three, differing pilot tasks?
AutoLand guys might consider the "ALIGN" function as the late de-crab YAWing motion (to match HDG with Rwy so that yaw-angle at touchdown is zeroed).
Pilots also sometimes must manually "align" or correct to COURSE (or to centerline) after a non-precision approach, or after an autopilot deviation near DH. This is the lateral L-R motion, toward centerline (but not overshooting). For FDR/FOQA/FDM, data-guys would consider this "alignment" as zeroing FDR's Loc-Dev.
?? For long-body airliner, in stiff x-wind landing with a planned Crab Angle, the "align" task might include visual line-up near the up-wind rwy edge -- so as to insure MLG does touchdown on concrete (??).
This ALIGN task (sometimes withOUT x-wind), while too-low, was a factor in other ARC-mishaps. NTSB recently released this case, where the pilot attempted a more perfect ALIGNMENT nearing DH -- then his correction overshot Centerline, touchdown with LHS MLG in the grass: thus achieving both an ARC (RHS I/B Flap and RHS wing tip), and also logging a USOS (LHS MLG off rwy at touchdown): DCA10IA015
There are three FDR plots available for the above mishap, AA-MD8 ARC, at 300' the Autopilot's tracking was a mere .28-dot Right, disconnected A/P, corrects, touched-down Loc-Dev shows .28-dot Left (photo evidence records that touchdown about on the Rwy's left Edge Line at 8000+ remaining, or 75' left of centerline), with the LHS MLG in the sod, just after the RHS Wingtip & RHS I/B Flap had contacted Rwy. [Interesting that Loc-Dev never exceeded the airline's one-third Dot triggering the "Go Around" call-out from a perfect FO-PM.]
Another example of L-R course correction inducing an ARC-wingtip was
ANC06IA054
"... I pointed out runway 19R. While maneuvering to line up on the runway, we overshot...."
One investigator related that he considered this mishap as more of a Go-Around ARC (Turbojet's spool-up delay?), since the pilots had initiated G/A prior to the wingtip-ARC. More recently, during strong x-wind at NYC's KLGA, there was an ARC-Wingtip, after a displaced-final approach course, correction to centerline, x-wind; this also maybe more of a G/A phase wingtip-ARC (turbojet's spool-up time-delay?):
AA366 / 5May11 LGA MD83 N966TW Lndg-GoAround ARC- wing-tip
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/D_0506_N.txt
= = = = = = =
Another common ARC-result has been that the mishap-pilots were completely unaware that their landing had included any Abnormal Rwy Contact, or off-rwy touchdown. Thus, occasionally, the ARC-mishap wasn't recognized by the humans, nor recorded in the aircraft logbook. Extreme examples of this ALA- lack of recognition (really more of a task-fixation) are available, eg, on 26Aug64 a B707-331 N787TW landing mishap at Kansas City MKC , where both MLG impacted the dike just prior to the Rwy Threshold -- pilots were not aware that the MLG had separated from the aircraft prior to their landing on the Rwy36, pilots were slow to realize that the airliner couldn't roll during attempted taxi.
= == = = = = = = = = = == = =
A380 limit geometry (pitch & roll) , for ARC- #4 Engine, was cited in message #44:
"... 3 p / 7.1 r -- Outer Engine Scrape ... Ref A380 FCTM ..."
Hmmm, A380's geometry-limited bank angle cited was 7.1 degrees of roll.ALAR Briefing Note
8.7 — Crosswind Landings [PDF 163K]
Figure 3 = plots of "Crab Angle / Bank Angle Requirement in 30-Knot Crosswind"
Read it yourself, 30Kt x-wind needs ~ 9degrees bank for a Zero Crab Angle at touchdown. Chart notes suggest mixing crab & bank for combination of 5degrees Bank with 5degrees Crab. [Therefore, the pilot would have a 2-degree margin of safety, is that enough?]
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This lifted from the weekly in service summary from Airbus.
Hopefully this satisfies any concerns about a perceived lack of required maintenance.
ATA 00 /78 – E ngine 4 drainmast damaged during landing
During landing, the engine #4 drainmast on the lower side of the nacelle contacted the runway. Aircraft landed safely and taxied to the gate normally.
At time of landing, crosswinds were reported, with gusts.
During post-flight inspection, the drain mast on engine #4 was found bent off-centre and scratched.
Drainmast was replaced. No findings from visual inspections per AMM Chapter 5. Analysis of LAT confirmed no additional inspections required.
The aircraft returned to service.
Investigation of this event is in progress.
During landing, the engine #4 drainmast on the lower side of the nacelle contacted the runway. Aircraft landed safely and taxied to the gate normally.
At time of landing, crosswinds were reported, with gusts.
During post-flight inspection, the drain mast on engine #4 was found bent off-centre and scratched.
Drainmast was replaced. No findings from visual inspections per AMM Chapter 5. Analysis of LAT confirmed no additional inspections required.
The aircraft returned to service.
Investigation of this event is in progress.
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Decrab during flare
Has this anything to do with KAL's training policy that in crosswind landings, it is imperative that pilots decrab simultaneously during the flare. A great technique if one gets it right on the sweet spot but in gusty conditions not everyone is lucky to get it spot on. Botch it and it can land one in the hot soup. I have seen quite a number of close calls by people using this technique.
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A380? 13 degrees Crab at touchdown OK ??
Question above:
"... KAL's training policy that in crosswind landings, it is imperative that pilots decrab simultaneously during the flare[?] ..."
Looking at the videos of the A380 flight tests, of their crosswind demonstration-landings, it seems as if each landing touchdown is done WINGS LEVEL, with no last-second yawing motion.
"... KAL's training policy that in crosswind landings, it is imperative that pilots decrab simultaneously during the flare[?] ..."
Looking at the videos of the A380 flight tests, of their crosswind demonstration-landings, it seems as if each landing touchdown is done WINGS LEVEL, with no last-second yawing motion.
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Flown the A380 for about 2 years; never met conditions like those described on July 21 at NRT. However had some fairly stiff crosswinds at LHR last summer; not much problem as you just pressure the downwind rudder to align the nose to runway centreline with hardly any need to input any aileron into the wind. This is the recommended technique; at least it's what I was taught in Toulouse. In really strong crosswinds close to the limit, Airbus allows landing with a slight crab with residual drift not more than 5 degrees.
The crew at NRT must have " kick "ed the downwind rudder and by force of habit, apply excessive upwind aileron input. At light weights and low speeds, such actions can induce undesirable oscillations. Can't blame them totally as they are pretty new on type and could have flown aircraft where simulator decrabbing during flare in strong crosswinds involved hefty upwind inputs. Sometimes certain simulator techniques can prove to be real disasters in real life flying!
Sorry, only handled the aircraft sporadically so I am by no means an A380 adept, only my 2 cents!
The crew at NRT must have " kick "ed the downwind rudder and by force of habit, apply excessive upwind aileron input. At light weights and low speeds, such actions can induce undesirable oscillations. Can't blame them totally as they are pretty new on type and could have flown aircraft where simulator decrabbing during flare in strong crosswinds involved hefty upwind inputs. Sometimes certain simulator techniques can prove to be real disasters in real life flying!
Sorry, only handled the aircraft sporadically so I am by no means an A380 adept, only my 2 cents!
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[QUOTE][So, Telur Belacan who are the 'greased monkeys' ?
The KAL ground engineers who were there, the Japanese engineers who were there, the Airbus field rep(s) who were there and inspected the aircraft.
Or the KAL flight crew?
Please let us know.
Yes, for info, it kissed the drain mast on #4 and the engine pod/cowls suffered no damage.
I suggest you have a close look at your English, as well/QUOTE]
Over that part of the world they don't call them engineers but mechanics. Telur might not have it right like some anal retentive whinger as English is probably not his first language. I suggest that he suggest you take a chill pill and laxative too!
The KAL ground engineers who were there, the Japanese engineers who were there, the Airbus field rep(s) who were there and inspected the aircraft.
Or the KAL flight crew?
Please let us know.
Yes, for info, it kissed the drain mast on #4 and the engine pod/cowls suffered no damage.
I suggest you have a close look at your English, as well/QUOTE]
Over that part of the world they don't call them engineers but mechanics. Telur might not have it right like some anal retentive whinger as English is probably not his first language. I suggest that he suggest you take a chill pill and laxative too!
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Akali Dal, in reply:
1. Your 'friend's' post sounded pretty rude and derogatory to me, calling Korea by an incorrect name, and appearing to allude to people from there as 'greased monkeys'.
2. Only place I've worked where people are called mechanics on a regular basis is
America and those working under the FAA system. Everywhere, I've been in the
Far East - engineers, technicians and mechanics (oil tippers and chock movers).
3. Chilled, I am. Supply me with enough Guinness and I'll quite happily expel the afters in your toilet.
Over that part of the world they don't call them engineers but mechanics. Telur might not have it right like some anal retentive whinger as English is probably not his first language. I suggest that he suggest you take a chill pill and laxative too! 28th Jul 2011 22:28
2. Only place I've worked where people are called mechanics on a regular basis is
America and those working under the FAA system. Everywhere, I've been in the
Far East - engineers, technicians and mechanics (oil tippers and chock movers).
3. Chilled, I am. Supply me with enough Guinness and I'll quite happily expel the afters in your toilet.
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Good on the NRT airport authorities to check on FODs. About 6 or 7 years ago, a KAL B744 pranged the engine on landing and the skipper kept quiet about it after the walkaround for the return flight hoping that it will be foisted onto the next unfortunate guy! Unfortunately this piece of work was an expat
If those were true, really riff raff of an expat skipper for KAL.
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grease monkeys
Can't speak for the poster who came up with 'greased monkeys' (and I wouldn't want to anyway), but the expression 'grease monkey' is old American slang for 'mechanic'. It was usually used for car mechanics, though I suppose airplane mechanics may have borne the nickname too. It was mildly derogatory, without quite reaching the category 'fighting words'. 'Grease monkey' bore no racial or ethnic connotations whatever.
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Grease and Tolerance
It sounds like the fine art of the language that is certainly not spoken and understood East of the Ural and West of the Pacific.
The Orientals asking for tolerance towards them at all times and have no understanding that greasing get´s you further then friction. I expirience now for more then 10 years that. I heared briefings and introduction they sounded as a excuse to be present today. Guy´s told me that "Oriental Cockpit Culture" is diffrent from Western and they appologize for any missunderstanding that may arise as it is the first time they fly with a Foreigner in theire life.... My gosh when I heared that the first time I have been shocked down to the bones. Now no surprises anymore, even when I asked a F/O once what leg you want to fly, the question came wrong from my side: It was not the way he was used to because it was too early as his introduction phase was not finished. The answer was: I am married, have two Daughters and served twelve years in the Airforce. Thank you, no further question !
Now after all this time I am still wondering why some Guy´s feel still attacked if someone says something what they do not understand and want to misinterprete sentences for purpose?
Haejangkuk and Admiral Shin: Just a small note: We have just one World and not two or three, so if something happen somewhere it happens to the Aviation Community and not to only a part of it.
So what is the diffrence if there is a Airbus Oberserver / Instructor present of not? Crosswinds freaks the desk pilots out, they put all crab on crewlink and we have to read it and some people just won´t get it. You can train it 100 times in the SIM, real life makes it. CJU can be challenging as well on 06/24 approaches, NRT is not easy when winds are showing natures forces but afterall it needs to have the broad understanding of the complecity and that is the missing part with the FBN-method. FlyByNumber goes not along. Proven often enough, time to accept it.
Now I am on my last month, I do not want to do a runner, I do my time for my own dignety. It may not be honored and valued from People in the 7th / 8th Floor but that is not important for me. My own face in the mirror is what counts, selfish I got with that. I do not want to be named a riff raff of something else and I know who I am and what core values are as a human.
The Orientals asking for tolerance towards them at all times and have no understanding that greasing get´s you further then friction. I expirience now for more then 10 years that. I heared briefings and introduction they sounded as a excuse to be present today. Guy´s told me that "Oriental Cockpit Culture" is diffrent from Western and they appologize for any missunderstanding that may arise as it is the first time they fly with a Foreigner in theire life.... My gosh when I heared that the first time I have been shocked down to the bones. Now no surprises anymore, even when I asked a F/O once what leg you want to fly, the question came wrong from my side: It was not the way he was used to because it was too early as his introduction phase was not finished. The answer was: I am married, have two Daughters and served twelve years in the Airforce. Thank you, no further question !
Now after all this time I am still wondering why some Guy´s feel still attacked if someone says something what they do not understand and want to misinterprete sentences for purpose?
Haejangkuk and Admiral Shin: Just a small note: We have just one World and not two or three, so if something happen somewhere it happens to the Aviation Community and not to only a part of it.
So what is the diffrence if there is a Airbus Oberserver / Instructor present of not? Crosswinds freaks the desk pilots out, they put all crab on crewlink and we have to read it and some people just won´t get it. You can train it 100 times in the SIM, real life makes it. CJU can be challenging as well on 06/24 approaches, NRT is not easy when winds are showing natures forces but afterall it needs to have the broad understanding of the complecity and that is the missing part with the FBN-method. FlyByNumber goes not along. Proven often enough, time to accept it.
Now I am on my last month, I do not want to do a runner, I do my time for my own dignety. It may not be honored and valued from People in the 7th / 8th Floor but that is not important for me. My own face in the mirror is what counts, selfish I got with that. I do not want to be named a riff raff of something else and I know who I am and what core values are as a human.
Last edited by B737NG; 30th Jul 2011 at 09:19.
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Good luck.
Now I am on my last month, I do not want to do a runner, I do my time for my own dignety. It may not be honored and valued from People in the 7th / 8th Floor but that is not important for me. My own face in the mirror is what counts, selfish I got with that. I do not want to be named a riff raff of something else and I know who I am and what core values are as a human
I'm fully understood your frustraion as an Expat in Korean Air.
There are a lot of things that you are supposed to manage as a PIC.
Nevertheless,working with a pilot whom you can't communicate with is a part
of your life and task since you chose KAL. I know how difficult it was for you to see many hardships and hypocratical policies in KAL. Anyway,your leaving is around the corner.
I hope that your next job will be more satisfying work for you.
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Godspeed!
B737NG, what can I say? I am frustrated too and most times I also cringed when I hear my fellow countrymen converse in English. I have yet to roll my eyes though when I hear some foreigners in their attempts at making Korean PAs. What we have are what you get; it's sad but I am not Jehovah Who probably can remake the world in another 6 days.
I am making this observation after waiting for people like Whinging Tinny and the host of English language police to pounce on your latest post; thankfully they have not risen to the occasion. I will not certainly take a stab at your admonition about " just one World.... ", maybe just a tad sad. Sure glad you are not doing a runner but making a dignified exit. Mind you, a number of my fellow Koreans would like to do runners too but I think they don't have the " rectal " fortitude to do that. So a few are making honorable, dignified exits like your goodself.
Please do not think I am judgemental about your language; it might have been the oliangju or fortified makgeolli our bad boys introduced to you! If so, cheers!. Like they say in Nihongo, gan pai. Godspeed and fly safe!
I am making this observation after waiting for people like Whinging Tinny and the host of English language police to pounce on your latest post; thankfully they have not risen to the occasion. I will not certainly take a stab at your admonition about " just one World.... ", maybe just a tad sad. Sure glad you are not doing a runner but making a dignified exit. Mind you, a number of my fellow Koreans would like to do runners too but I think they don't have the " rectal " fortitude to do that. So a few are making honorable, dignified exits like your goodself.
Please do not think I am judgemental about your language; it might have been the oliangju or fortified makgeolli our bad boys introduced to you! If so, cheers!. Like they say in Nihongo, gan pai. Godspeed and fly safe!
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haejangkuk's location is Sachon. This is a Korean Air Force base with shared commercial operation. Possibly not a base for airline pilots, but expect a heap of overseas trained KAF flight instructors would be based there.
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" haejangkuk, are you really Korean? I have not seen any Korean f/os write or argue lucidly like this. Or are you one of those educated overseas? "
Based on 'haejangkuk's age.....having been an English language instructor primarily to Koreans for the past 7 years.......I can attest that MOST Koreans of this age are much more proficient in English having begun at an earlier age....most in Kindergarten and even earlier, as compared to their older peers. However, one must ask.....what does LANGUAGE PROFICIENCY have to do with a pod strike in atrocious x-wind conditions at NRT on this day in question?
Based on 'haejangkuk's age.....having been an English language instructor primarily to Koreans for the past 7 years.......I can attest that MOST Koreans of this age are much more proficient in English having begun at an earlier age....most in Kindergarten and even earlier, as compared to their older peers. However, one must ask.....what does LANGUAGE PROFICIENCY have to do with a pod strike in atrocious x-wind conditions at NRT on this day in question?
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Any facts now known on the pod strike? the Video shows similar sudden banking then a while ago the B777 at 16R, that time back there was no significant wind involved but the Airplane oscillated during touch down, you can also say bounced a few times.