Air India bashing - gone too far?
There is a statistical link with flying and skin cancer, but the culprit is suspected to be melatonin level disruption due to irregular sleep patterns rather than solely UV light exposure (which is minimal in most cockpits.)
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is to always trust your TCAS, if both planes did, that day would not be another satistic.I believe the recommendation was to always follow your TCAS, trusting it is a different thing entirely.
Lets just say that you were put into that situation. Will you just blindly follow your TCAS straight into the same accident?. Or maybe you should remove your head from your bottom, look out of the window, see the threat, and do what you can to avoid it.
as if acid was splashed directly into them
TCAS may be giving you an RA to an aircraft that you have not seen and would be a bigger threat than the one you have seen and would take into account the one you have seen, so yes trust your TCAS. In a TCAS mandated environment it's better than you.
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Amen to that. Also, a crew response is required in 5 seconds of getting a RA. Assuming that you would need a few seconds to look out, sight the traffic, ascertain its relative direction with respect to yours and look back to your instruments to analyze the instructions and execute the maneuver, you would have lost precious seconds and exacerbated the situation to fatal proportions. So yes, crew that are operating in RVSM airspace are trained to positively follow their TCAS, and disregard potentially conflicting instructions from ATC in case of an RA.
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Is it not clear yet? I didn't say do not follow or react to TCAS. I did not say react opposite to an RA. Of course, you react to an RA first, PNF should be looking outside to get eyes on.
So when they don't, which has and will still happen, and force a situation that is increasingly likely to result in a collision what are you going to do? Just keep following your fallible computer in to a mid air? Stupid. Crew are also trained not to crash aeroplanes, that still happens doesn't it.
Which, surely, is another reason to keep a good lookout? You know, situational awareness. How good is yours if you can not see outside?
So yes, crew that are operating in RVSM airspace are trained to positively follow their TCAS
TCAS may be giving you an RA to an aircraft that you have not seen
Situational Awareness is increased by using all available inputs including TCAS. In RVSM TCAS is better than you since it sees all responding units (+/- 360 degrees vertically and horizontally); you don't, you only have an extremely limited field of view (typically +/- 60 degrees horizontally and +20 - 10 degrees vertically) and a (very) limited (mental) processor that is subject to many types of input and processing errors. There is always the possibility of a non-TCAS threat, but in a TCAS mandated environment that possibility is remote and less than your perceptual errors.
A bigger threat is weather so do look out, but a TCAS RA needs you to look in and follow the RA commands (PNF needs to monitor this for correct response AND to look out.)
Ignoring the necessity for accurate compliance with the RA commands in order to look out is asking for disaster.
I would hope that the other aircraft I meet in an RA would not try to visually identify me before reacting.
A bigger threat is weather so do look out, but a TCAS RA needs you to look in and follow the RA commands (PNF needs to monitor this for correct response AND to look out.)
Ignoring the necessity for accurate compliance with the RA commands in order to look out is asking for disaster.
I would hope that the other aircraft I meet in an RA would not try to visually identify me before reacting.
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Ignoring the necessity for accurate compliance with the RA commands in order to look out is asking for disaster.
I would hope that the other aircraft I meet in an RA would not try to visually identify me before reacting.
but a TCAS RA needs you to look in and follow the RA commands
You don't need to repeat what I've already said. I did ask this question, yet so far nobody has answered. What will you do if the RA is no longer appropriate and to continue to follow it will result in a collision? Keep following it? Or, do something about it?
Thanks for the lecture anyway.
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Lord Spandex, to clarify a few things:
1. I was merely responding to a misleading comment from Sonny saying "At the end of the day the regs are clear. See and avoid is the legal method to avoid mid-air collisions." That statement is absolutely wrong when concerning jet aircrafts flying at several hundered miles per hr. and closing in at twice the speed.
2. I am not advocating that looking out is not necessary and shouldn't be done regularly. As a matter of practice, in terminal areas or on oceanic routes with reciprocal traffic (and in most other circumstances where there is crossing traffic), crew have the habit of visually locating traffic passing within +/- a couple of thousand feet of them for situational awareness. However, the primary indicator for traffic is the TCAS on the Nav Display, and it is only after locating an a/c on the TCAS, that the crew then try to visually sight it.
1. I was merely responding to a misleading comment from Sonny saying "At the end of the day the regs are clear. See and avoid is the legal method to avoid mid-air collisions." That statement is absolutely wrong when concerning jet aircrafts flying at several hundered miles per hr. and closing in at twice the speed.
2. I am not advocating that looking out is not necessary and shouldn't be done regularly. As a matter of practice, in terminal areas or on oceanic routes with reciprocal traffic (and in most other circumstances where there is crossing traffic), crew have the habit of visually locating traffic passing within +/- a couple of thousand feet of them for situational awareness. However, the primary indicator for traffic is the TCAS on the Nav Display, and it is only after locating an a/c on the TCAS, that the crew then try to visually sight it.
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1. Agreed.
2. Agreed. With the caveat that TCAS is notoriously inaccurate laterally. There's no point fixating on a target which may be going away from you and is, therefore, irrelevant.
Still, this leads back to covered windows. What do you do when you get a TCAS target? Take all the charts down, have a look, and then stick them all back up again?
2. Agreed. With the caveat that TCAS is notoriously inaccurate laterally. There's no point fixating on a target which may be going away from you and is, therefore, irrelevant.
Still, this leads back to covered windows. What do you do when you get a TCAS target? Take all the charts down, have a look, and then stick them all back up again?
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When flying into the sun, the glareshield is quite inadequate, hence the practice of loosely attaching newspapers to the front, but there are always sufficient gaps maintained in order to give you a clear view of whats outside. When there is weather around, we just grin and bear it (i.e. No papers on the front) So if there's traffic ahead that needs to be sighted, we lean forward, and if necessary get the paper out of the way, make an assessment of the traffic and leave the paper the way it was. It isn't as cumbersome as some people would make you believe.
Quite often, the paper is required for you to be able to properly sight your own instruments and CRTs/LCDs which are reduced to an almost colourless blur when they're facing the full blast of the sun's wrath.
Quite often, the paper is required for you to be able to properly sight your own instruments and CRTs/LCDs which are reduced to an almost colourless blur when they're facing the full blast of the sun's wrath.
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Simply ridiculous!
Just a thought here. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Been flying before most of you here were probably born. Sorry about that(pun not intended). And still am.
Wonder how you fellas handle a dark cloud covered night then. I recently did 9 hours out of a 13 hour trip heading west without even a glimpse of either a star or the ground. Were in clouds throughout the 9 hours. Moonless night, so even for the little time I was out of clouds, I couldn't see a thing.
Most peaceful flight I ever had!
Now back to the newspaper covering bit...
And oh yes...they should definitely NOT be covering the windows with newspapers. As a matter of fact, when not being used as sun screens, the damn paper should be READ!
Cause that's the only other use it has on the flight deck.
So guess what I was doing on that dark cloudy night. Looking out for traffic...???!!
Nope you missed it again. I was too buzy reading the paper! What with everybody in RVSM airspace having operational transponders and 2 seperate wonderful weather detection systems approved and fitted by honeywell. I think the days of a lookout are long gone my friends. Long gone.
Look what happened to the Titanic...
Been flying before most of you here were probably born. Sorry about that(pun not intended). And still am.
Wonder how you fellas handle a dark cloud covered night then. I recently did 9 hours out of a 13 hour trip heading west without even a glimpse of either a star or the ground. Were in clouds throughout the 9 hours. Moonless night, so even for the little time I was out of clouds, I couldn't see a thing.
Most peaceful flight I ever had!
Now back to the newspaper covering bit...
And oh yes...they should definitely NOT be covering the windows with newspapers. As a matter of fact, when not being used as sun screens, the damn paper should be READ!
Cause that's the only other use it has on the flight deck.
So guess what I was doing on that dark cloudy night. Looking out for traffic...???!!
Nope you missed it again. I was too buzy reading the paper! What with everybody in RVSM airspace having operational transponders and 2 seperate wonderful weather detection systems approved and fitted by honeywell. I think the days of a lookout are long gone my friends. Long gone.
Look what happened to the Titanic...
Last edited by A380 Jockey; 28th May 2011 at 13:17. Reason: Added some!
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Yep, and autoland is so reliable you might as well chuck your sidestick away too. In fact just take the windows out altogether. Much better hey?
You may be a jockey but it ain't horses or aeroplanes, it's the other one.
You may be a jockey but it ain't horses or aeroplanes, it's the other one.
What will you do if the RA is no longer appropriate and to continue to follow it will result in a collision? Keep following it? Or, do something about it?
Following the RA (until it downgrades to a TA) is your best course of action. Think of being under/overtaken on a collision azimuth from your rear quarter but with height separation by an aircraft you can't see (but TCAS can) but is currently no threat and receiving an RA for an aircraft you can see and avoid. The possibility exists that ignoring the RA commands (which would put you in the safest position) and operating purely visually could lead to a further RA on the unseen aircraft. It can and does handle multiple contacts quite well so by following the commands you will place yourself in the safest environment.
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TCAS requirements: Traffic collision avoidance system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Class D: (...) The controlling authority for this airspace is the control tower for the associated airport, and radar may or may not be used.
Class E: (...) As far as is practical, traffic information is given to all flights in respect of VFR flights.
Class F: (...) ATC separation will be provided, so far as practical, to aircraft operating under IFR. (...)
Class G: (...) ATC separation is not provided.
And then, there is Africa...
Cover ur butt!
Last edited by heavy.airbourne; 29th May 2011 at 01:13.
No question, a good lookout is, well, a good idea.
So, ladies and gents who criticize the covering of the glarey bits, on a 8-16 hour for example, long haul flight do you spend that whole time 'scanning for bogeys'
Time for a reality check..
So, ladies and gents who criticize the covering of the glarey bits, on a 8-16 hour for example, long haul flight do you spend that whole time 'scanning for bogeys'
Time for a reality check..
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Direct quote from the Oz AIP. My bolding.
Also, Civil Aviation Regulation 163A
Visual aquisition of the other aircraft was the last resort available to the prevention of the GOL 1907 accident. It's debatable with the closure speeds in that case (head on) whether avoiding action may have been possible. However, it would be nice to think that crews were not relying solely on TCAS to avoid a thunderclap meeting.
A traffic information service will be provided, where applicable, depending on higher priority duties of the controller or other limitations; eg radar limitations, volume of traffic, frequency congestion, or controller work load. Radar/non-radar traffic does not relieve pilots of their responsibility to see and avoid other aircraft. Pilots are cautioned that there are many times when the controller is not able to give traffic information concerning all traffic in the aircraft's proximity; in other words, when a pilot requests or is receiving traffic information, he/she should not assume that all traffic will be issued.
Responsibility of flight crew to see and avoid aircraft
When weather conditions permit, the flight crew of an aircraft must, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under the Instrument Flight Rules or the Visual Flight Rules, maintain vigilance so as to see, and avoid, other aircraft.
When weather conditions permit, the flight crew of an aircraft must, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under the Instrument Flight Rules or the Visual Flight Rules, maintain vigilance so as to see, and avoid, other aircraft.
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Lookout is required by law and a bloody good idea. Doesn't matter if for weather or traffic. There are quite a few weather phenomena and effects that cannot be seen on radar, would be nice to see it beforehand instead of sleeping in a shaded flightdeck until you get a nasty surprise. Same for TCAS, of course you fly the RA, however it is quite often not even necessary to run into an RA and even more important, there are still planes around without Mode C/S which won't picked up by tcas and don't forget, it is quite legal to fly around for 10 days without any TCAS at all.
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As long as mister Boeing himself writes in the QRH that pilots should try to obtain visual contact with traffic in case of a TA or an RA, why would I not do that?
BTW, it sounds like a bloody good idea anyway.
Scary thought that apparently many of my colleages think it doesn't do any harm to block the windows. Jockeys or otherwise...
BTW, it sounds like a bloody good idea anyway.
Scary thought that apparently many of my colleages think it doesn't do any harm to block the windows. Jockeys or otherwise...
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Blocking the whole windscreen? Why not just block where the sun is?
Seems like, for people like that, OH&S was created, for those with little common sense.
Sure TCAS is there, but I'm sure a wide variety of situations could render it useless... Failures and the like. I personally think it's a good idea to keep a lookout whenever and whatever you are flying...
Seems like, for people like that, OH&S was created, for those with little common sense.
Sure TCAS is there, but I'm sure a wide variety of situations could render it useless... Failures and the like. I personally think it's a good idea to keep a lookout whenever and whatever you are flying...