RYR taxi with towbar in LPL
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Well IF the bar was left disconnected from the A/C and the tug that's a groundcrew error. However, the fact that the flightcrew could NOT have seen tug, TOWBAR and pin is the error on their part. Note error - not blame.
Yes 25 minute turns are challenging - that's why you have to be meticulous. So what if someone pushes ahead of you or get's taxi clearance ahead of you - big deal, it'll cost you a few minutes - chill out.
When the ground crew is released it is imperitive that they are observed crossing the line CLEAR OF THE AIRCRAFT with the tug, towbar, headset man and pin. ONLY THEN should the after starts be done.
BA had a tug breakdown as it pulled away. Flightcrew didn't notice because they had "released" them (night time) - a/c taxied forward and dragged the No2 pod over the lifting booms of the tug...... probably with groundcrew scattering!
Don't rush, look, be careful, check EVERYTHING clear.
Yes 25 minute turns are challenging - that's why you have to be meticulous. So what if someone pushes ahead of you or get's taxi clearance ahead of you - big deal, it'll cost you a few minutes - chill out.
When the ground crew is released it is imperitive that they are observed crossing the line CLEAR OF THE AIRCRAFT with the tug, towbar, headset man and pin. ONLY THEN should the after starts be done.
BA had a tug breakdown as it pulled away. Flightcrew didn't notice because they had "released" them (night time) - a/c taxied forward and dragged the No2 pod over the lifting booms of the tug...... probably with groundcrew scattering!
Don't rush, look, be careful, check EVERYTHING clear.
Psychophysiological entity
And listen . . . through the very bones of the aircraft. Sometimes nasty things can be felt if not heard.
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Ahaaaa! The Prune bias strikes again! Just reading through this thread makes me want to laugh.The comments range from mildly disapproving to overly forgiving.
Now, if this had been a third world airline-----.
Poor training, no CRM, horrible safety culture blah ,blah,blah,yadda,yadda ,yadda.
Now, if this had been a third world airline-----.
Poor training, no CRM, horrible safety culture blah ,blah,blah,yadda,yadda ,yadda.
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Well at least it took 17 posts before someone started blaming it on Ryanair cadets. Usually that will happen in the first 10.
Fact is nobody commenting here has any clue what happened. I haven't even seen a confirming independent source on this incident.
Stop embarrassing yourselves.
Fact is nobody commenting here has any clue what happened. I haven't even seen a confirming independent source on this incident.
Stop embarrassing yourselves.
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right version
guys i actually talked to the crew that was involved, the real story is the tug and tow bar were removed, after start checks done an left area was side was clear, as the tug was goin away from the ac towards the rear the towbar came away from the tug as the pin they had used was to short to hold the tow bar in it rolled back and got caught in front of the wheel as they were taxing out... think it was tower who stopped them.. another thumbs up for service air
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right version
Rush, rush, rush, rush, rush, rush.......... Accident.
could have been any airline, anywhere. Freak incident, move on, nothing to see here!
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the real story is the tug and tow bar were removed, after start checks done an left area was side was clear, as the tug was goin away from the ac towards the rear the towbar came away from the tug as the pin they had used was to short to hold the tow bar in it rolled back and got caught in front of the wheel as they were taxing out.
It would indeed appear to be a freak incident...Carlton Browne and other experts take note. You are reliant on others in this job. If the ground crew use the wrong pin or the wrong towbar as recently happened in another incident then this kind of thing happens.
Last edited by lederhosen; 14th May 2011 at 20:35.
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I've seen 2 occurrences of RYR aircraft calling for push and start when they still have doors open and airstairs out in the past 6 months. It seems they're always keen to get away from the gate. Rush, Rush, Rush.
If you have only seen Ryanair doing this then you must lead a pretty sheltered life! I have witnessed plenty of others using this tactic to get in front of nearby aircraft.
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Only the retarded could have a go at Ryanair in such circumstances.
Aldente - I've flown with lots of guys with many thousands of hours who want to rush things at this stage of the game. And its not usually because they feel under pressure or caused by the 25 minute turnaround - its because they want to get home early.
I think we can leave the cadets, the turnaround, the Company out of it.
Aldente - I've flown with lots of guys with many thousands of hours who want to rush things at this stage of the game. And its not usually because they feel under pressure or caused by the 25 minute turnaround - its because they want to get home early.
I think we can leave the cadets, the turnaround, the Company out of it.
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Let's stop blaming 25-minute turnrounds.
We did those in the '70s, BAC 1-11 and B737, as a matter of routine, allocated seating, lots of bags, manual loadsheet, LMCs, and usually fuelling to next sector minimum and-a-liddle-bit. It was not thought to be onerous, and it wasn't.
And we did not corral departing passengers for 30 minutes at the gate so that they could be shoved aboard in the minimum time.
There's clearly lots of Human Factors to look at when two well-trained and competent teams (flight deck and ground) make an error like that, and I sincerely hope that the incident will be investigated using MEDA by an expert to see what the real root cause(s) was(were) and not just write it off to "pressure". Because if the real cause is not found it will happen again, and again, and again.........
If I were doing the investigation, I would start with a very open mind, and look for more than one cause.
We did those in the '70s, BAC 1-11 and B737, as a matter of routine, allocated seating, lots of bags, manual loadsheet, LMCs, and usually fuelling to next sector minimum and-a-liddle-bit. It was not thought to be onerous, and it wasn't.
And we did not corral departing passengers for 30 minutes at the gate so that they could be shoved aboard in the minimum time.
There's clearly lots of Human Factors to look at when two well-trained and competent teams (flight deck and ground) make an error like that, and I sincerely hope that the incident will be investigated using MEDA by an expert to see what the real root cause(s) was(were) and not just write it off to "pressure". Because if the real cause is not found it will happen again, and again, and again.........
If I were doing the investigation, I would start with a very open mind, and look for more than one cause.
I simply cannot begin to tell you how many times I have heard aircraft call for "Push and Start" when they are still boarding passengers. They are usually trying to preempt missing their slot times.
Especially do I remember a British Airways aircraft, which was parked right alongside me, calling for "Push and Start" when he was nowhere near moving. My request to "Push and Start" was refused on the basis that the aircraft alongside had already been cleared!!!!!!!!!!
At that point, I lost my presence of mind and pointed out to ATC that he was still boarding passengers and was still surrounded by vehicles and in no position to push for some considerable time.
After a bit of confusion, I got my clearance.
Some of our promising sciolistic hysterics are screaming "rush, rush, rush". Do they know that the crew involved were rushing? Do they know that the crew had not been on the ground for 12 hours? Of course they don't.
We are told by A4 that BA managed to drag the No.2 pod over the lifting booms of the tug. Were they on a 25 minute turnround? I seriously doubt it.
In my last job we regularly did 20 minute turnrounds without a problem.
This will probably come down to the pin which connects the towbar to the tug being the wrong size/length or whatever. It's not enough to say that you have to check that the towbar is seen to be on the back of the tug by all you perfect specimens out there for I have been to several airfields where the towbar was taken away by the ground crew in one direction and the tug buggered off in the opposite direction (presumably to pick up a new towbar for the next type of aircraft that he is going to push back).
Perhaps some of the uneducated pillocks among you out there don't know that not all towbars fit every type of aircraft.
In the final analysis, we can't see a hell of a lot from the flightdeck and if the man on the headset tells us that we are clear to taxi, then we wish him well, wait until he walks clear and then start to taxi.
If he has chosen to ignore the fact that he has left a Toyota 4x4 underneath the nose (which we can't see) then what the hell do you expect us to do?
Especially do I remember a British Airways aircraft, which was parked right alongside me, calling for "Push and Start" when he was nowhere near moving. My request to "Push and Start" was refused on the basis that the aircraft alongside had already been cleared!!!!!!!!!!
At that point, I lost my presence of mind and pointed out to ATC that he was still boarding passengers and was still surrounded by vehicles and in no position to push for some considerable time.
After a bit of confusion, I got my clearance.
Some of our promising sciolistic hysterics are screaming "rush, rush, rush". Do they know that the crew involved were rushing? Do they know that the crew had not been on the ground for 12 hours? Of course they don't.
We are told by A4 that BA managed to drag the No.2 pod over the lifting booms of the tug. Were they on a 25 minute turnround? I seriously doubt it.
In my last job we regularly did 20 minute turnrounds without a problem.
This will probably come down to the pin which connects the towbar to the tug being the wrong size/length or whatever. It's not enough to say that you have to check that the towbar is seen to be on the back of the tug by all you perfect specimens out there for I have been to several airfields where the towbar was taken away by the ground crew in one direction and the tug buggered off in the opposite direction (presumably to pick up a new towbar for the next type of aircraft that he is going to push back).
Perhaps some of the uneducated pillocks among you out there don't know that not all towbars fit every type of aircraft.
In the final analysis, we can't see a hell of a lot from the flightdeck and if the man on the headset tells us that we are clear to taxi, then we wish him well, wait until he walks clear and then start to taxi.
If he has chosen to ignore the fact that he has left a Toyota 4x4 underneath the nose (which we can't see) then what the hell do you expect us to do?
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3000 hours, average sector maybe 90 min to 120 min, thats a hell of a lot of push backs!how many bloody push backs do you need to be part of before been considered experienced. Get a grip lads!!
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My request to "Push and Start" was refused on the basis that the aircraft alongside had already been cleared!!!!!!!!!!
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After the engines are started, the scan is complete, we look out the window and see an engineer (who is also a professional) with a pin giving us a thumbs up. Then we request taxi. That's it. How many people's jobs do we have to do?
From another poster: "But I'd OF thought that... It must OF needed a fistful of power..."
Now WTF kind of grammar is that? Even worse than the posters who don't know the difference between "there", "their" and "they're".
From another poster: "But I'd OF thought that... It must OF needed a fistful of power..."
Now WTF kind of grammar is that? Even worse than the posters who don't know the difference between "there", "their" and "they're".
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Che - you have to do whatever is necessary to protect your aircraft! Or do you wait for an accident and then say ' well, that's not my fault because they should of done it'? (or however your superior grammar skills would phrase it)!
Upon reflection, the most ridiculous push and start episode that I ever got involved with happened at Shannon one evening.
I was parked alongside a Channel Express Electra who called for "Push and Start". The only snag was that he had neither a tug or a towbar. Why?
Because the only available tug and towbar was already connected to my aircraft and the chap on the headset told me that they were going to push me back and then go back for the Electra!
At Shannon the tower can't see that part of the airfield so my request to "Push and Start" was refused because the Electra had already been cleared.
The next few minutes were like a sketch from Monty Python.
Eventually common sense prevailed but the point surely is "How on earth can you call for push and start when you have nether a tug or a towbar"?
I was parked alongside a Channel Express Electra who called for "Push and Start". The only snag was that he had neither a tug or a towbar. Why?
Because the only available tug and towbar was already connected to my aircraft and the chap on the headset told me that they were going to push me back and then go back for the Electra!
At Shannon the tower can't see that part of the airfield so my request to "Push and Start" was refused because the Electra had already been cleared.
The next few minutes were like a sketch from Monty Python.
Eventually common sense prevailed but the point surely is "How on earth can you call for push and start when you have nether a tug or a towbar"?