Air France jet clips smaller plane at New York's JFK airport
Those aren't mutually incompatable approaches.
It's quite possible that one final outcome of this accident will be a recommendation to JFK to change their procedures. Or their taxiways.
That does not relieve the PIC of responsibility for following and taking into account the procedures, however bad, in effect at the time and place he is operating his/her airplane. And looking out the window to see what is in the way.
It's quite possible that one final outcome of this accident will be a recommendation to JFK to change their procedures. Or their taxiways.
That does not relieve the PIC of responsibility for following and taking into account the procedures, however bad, in effect at the time and place he is operating his/her airplane. And looking out the window to see what is in the way.
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I think the final outcome of this investigation will be all PIC's are required to not let their wings hit anything. Ground control has a lot of stuff going on and I don't think their job is making sure the captain doesn't misjudge his wing clearance. If so we will need a lot more ground controllers with a lot more taxi data. Why is it so hard to taxi your aircraft without help for wing tip clearance? I never needed it. Of coarse that was only 23,000 hrs.
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OK, my 2 cents worth. AF A380 pilots stuffed up; they were taxiing a really heavy plane with a huge amount of momentum at a reasonable speed for the conditions. It was a mistake any of us could have made; imho the AF and F/O skipper are going to be held responsible with the necessary penalties and a big lesson learnt. AF will probably take into account the mitigating circumstances which certainly favour a more lenient view to the error.
In the dark environment, it was difficult to make out the position of the RJ. What more with the myriad of flashing beacons from other planes and ground vehicles in the vicinity.
Have anyone operated into LAX lately during misty/foggy night hours? The plethora of flashing red and amber lights with ground vehicles darting around are sure enough to put one into a stroboscopic induced syncope. Add this to the non stop chatter on ground frequency with the F/O having to contact ramp tower on another, the overload of one's visual and aural senses together with the need to navigate the complex taxiway system due to sporadic partial closures of certain taxiways, can truly be overwhelming. I ain't a skygod, it is sure taxing for an average pilot.
In the dark environment, it was difficult to make out the position of the RJ. What more with the myriad of flashing beacons from other planes and ground vehicles in the vicinity.
Have anyone operated into LAX lately during misty/foggy night hours? The plethora of flashing red and amber lights with ground vehicles darting around are sure enough to put one into a stroboscopic induced syncope. Add this to the non stop chatter on ground frequency with the F/O having to contact ramp tower on another, the overload of one's visual and aural senses together with the need to navigate the complex taxiway system due to sporadic partial closures of certain taxiways, can truly be overwhelming. I ain't a skygod, it is sure taxing for an average pilot.
Last edited by OKhalsa; 30th Apr 2011 at 01:41.
Perhaps at JFK as in EWR razor thin staffing levels leads to the situation where one waits forever for everything as the rampers are busy doing something else, RJ arrivals being low on their list of priorities Hold short of the gate. "Ops we need marshalers". Minutes later some dude with uniform worn gangsta' style, hat cocked sideways, casually sashays or perhaps languidly saunters into view to show to crew and pax there is no hurry at all. Of course the FOM requires two wing walkers. "Ops, yeah we need wing walkers at gate whatever". Wait another five minutes. Maybe they have their required lighted wands, maybe not. Hopefully an A380 doesn't blast by and take your tail off. Get guided in, no jetway driver. Another call to Ops. Twenty minutes or so have passed by the time everyone deplanes...
Last edited by Koan; 6th May 2011 at 11:40.
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Sad isn't it at the complete ****ty stuff pilots need to endure this day. Just came back form a 13 hour flight with 360 over pax with 19 wheelchair cases and docked into a gate with 2 aerobridges available and fully serviceable. Airport service staff insisted on using only one boarding bridge for disembarking and it took a good 40 over minutes for the whole process.
Agnostique, I'll give you a one-word difference between the two events - VIDEO.
The VIDEO showed a really big (nationality irrelevent) aircraft spinning around a rather small (nationality irrelevent) aircraft. That grabbed global (not just PPRuNE) attention.
Not sure - yet - how much damage was done in the 737-on-737 accident. Perhaps it should have stayed on R&N a bit longer.
The VIDEO showed a really big (nationality irrelevent) aircraft spinning around a rather small (nationality irrelevent) aircraft. That grabbed global (not just PPRuNE) attention.
Not sure - yet - how much damage was done in the 737-on-737 accident. Perhaps it should have stayed on R&N a bit longer.
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Maybe Strauss-Kahn was on board the AF as well and wanted to get away fast 
Couldn't resist, sorry. And I know he is assumed not guilty until proven otherwise...
Couldn't resist, sorry. And I know he is assumed not guilty until proven otherwise...
Last edited by grimmrad; 16th May 2011 at 19:47.
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DSK
Guess for his wanted speedy departure even that video accelerated A 380 was moving to slow!!
But I am amazed this thread is still going.!! Thought all is said ?? Could add to my earlier post a few more reasons for the accident learned from this thread:
- A wreckless lory driver that cut off a planes travelling on the ramp
- Cramped parking and timeslots for use prevented a smooth taxy to position
- Probably - assumption - balloony, non standard, chat on ramp freq. prevented a warning in time from the RJ pilot that his tail was sticking into the safety space of TWY "A"
- A Ramp control that obviously is more involved in other tasks than safeguarding the activities in that area of responsibilty
- A "handover area" - ever heard about that at JFK ?? - Taxi/ Ramp not existing
- Probably an AF pilot trusting on the received clearance and assuming safe taxi lane
- AF crew probably distracted by other duties or the lighting situation at the place of the accident
- Razorblade thinned out (Quote) staffing in ATC
and so on and so on. I do not defer pilots responsibilties to other units or persons, but before someone should shed blame on another the conditions must fit international standards. Thats my personal opinion.
So lets look and wait what NTSB - FAA and Port Authority are party in that case and shouldn´t run the investigation - findings will be.
Jo
But I am amazed this thread is still going.!! Thought all is said ?? Could add to my earlier post a few more reasons for the accident learned from this thread:
- A wreckless lory driver that cut off a planes travelling on the ramp
- Cramped parking and timeslots for use prevented a smooth taxy to position
- Probably - assumption - balloony, non standard, chat on ramp freq. prevented a warning in time from the RJ pilot that his tail was sticking into the safety space of TWY "A"
- A Ramp control that obviously is more involved in other tasks than safeguarding the activities in that area of responsibilty
- A "handover area" - ever heard about that at JFK ?? - Taxi/ Ramp not existing
- Probably an AF pilot trusting on the received clearance and assuming safe taxi lane
- AF crew probably distracted by other duties or the lighting situation at the place of the accident
- Razorblade thinned out (Quote) staffing in ATC
and so on and so on. I do not defer pilots responsibilties to other units or persons, but before someone should shed blame on another the conditions must fit international standards. Thats my personal opinion.
So lets look and wait what NTSB - FAA and Port Authority are party in that case and shouldn´t run the investigation - findings will be.
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Fender-bender for 2 Delta planes at ATL Thursday night | 11alive.com
By the way, you could park a 737 on EACH wing of the A380
By the way, you could park a 737 on EACH wing of the A380
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A380 Visibility from Cockpit in Static Position
SM
As long as NYPA allows the use of taxiways below Annex 14 standards this sort of thing will happen
As long as NYPA allows the use of taxiways below Annex 14 standards this sort of thing will happen
You can of course prove to us 'doubters' of your knowledge of aviation, which taxiway fails to meet Annex 14 and specifically, why.
Over to you ...
Quote:
SM
As long as NYPA allows the use of taxiways below Annex 14 standards this sort of thing will happen
SM
As long as NYPA allows the use of taxiways below Annex 14 standards this sort of thing will happen
You can of course prove to us 'doubters' of your knowledge of aviation, which taxiway fails to meet Annex 14 and specifically, why.
Over to you ...
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Well done SM with that single line, you have managed to confirm that your knowledge of ICAO and how it works, specifically Annex14, is as woefully lacking as your knowledge in other areas of aviation.
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AF were just unlucky they operate the largest modern aircraft to JFK.
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A VERY similar accident happened yesterday between a B747 and an ERJ....let's hear the passionate people from this forum share their passion for the wingtip clearance of the 747, lest the double standards be brutally exposed...
Boeing 747 clips tail of American Eagle regional jet in Chicago - USATODAY.com
Boeing 747 clips tail of American Eagle regional jet in Chicago - USATODAY.com
