Air France jet clips smaller plane at New York's JFK airport
The A380 captain obviously shoulders part of the blame. But the CRJ was clearly not where the controller thought it was. Did the captain of that aircraft report that his stand was blocked or that he was waiting for a marshaller? If not then he must also accept some of the blame. If he did then the controller should have passed it on.
I disagree. You cannot run into people just because they didn't tell you they were in the way.
Looking at the video, I don't think the AF pilot saw the RJ. However the onus is on him to ensure the safety of his aircraft.
Looking at the video, I don't think the AF pilot saw the RJ. However the onus is on him to ensure the safety of his aircraft.
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Airports too small?
Seven Stroke Roll opines that "airplanes get too big, or airports get too small, which is easier to change?"....... The answer is not necessarily obvious.
I recollect from reading aviation history that a British Aircraft manufacturer, shortly after WWII, decided to go with making planes (for those who could afford this luxury way of travel) that were capable of landing on the existing short runways. But other companies went for long haul capacity craft that could carry a lot of bums on seats. And guess what happened?
Every major city built a bigger airport.
I recollect from reading aviation history that a British Aircraft manufacturer, shortly after WWII, decided to go with making planes (for those who could afford this luxury way of travel) that were capable of landing on the existing short runways. But other companies went for long haul capacity craft that could carry a lot of bums on seats. And guess what happened?
Every major city built a bigger airport.
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Parking sensors have been an option on cars for a long time. I would have thought something could have been added to the A380 wing tip to warn of obstructions. Especially as the increased span was know to be an issue for airports at the design stage. It seemed to stop quite quickly so not much warning needed?
Traffic cops
Earlier in this thread there was much speculation that ATC has some role/responibility in avoiding ground collisions. 'After all that's what they do in the air'.
If you have a traffic cop regulating the flow of cars at a busy intersection and you collide with a parked car fifty feet from the intersection-who's fault is it?
The buck must eventually stop with AF PIC.
S
If you have a traffic cop regulating the flow of cars at a busy intersection and you collide with a parked car fifty feet from the intersection-who's fault is it?
The buck must eventually stop with AF PIC.
S
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Lets not forget that the regional jet is not a small plane, it was either a CRJ700 or 900 not much smaller than a 737.
Everybody is talking as if this was a cessna 152
Everybody is talking as if this was a cessna 152
What is wrong with some of you guys?
For goodness sake he was taxiing the worlds biggest commercial jet down a dark narrow taxiway at high speed and he hits another aircraft he should have seen was too close to safely pass and you blame the CRJ crew!!!
I suppose if he'd run his Peugot into the back of another car at the lights you'd blame the other car too!!
All he had to do was taxi in a straight line at a sensible speed with his EYES OPEN and NOT RUN INTO ANYTHING.......
For goodness sake he was taxiing the worlds biggest commercial jet down a dark narrow taxiway at high speed and he hits another aircraft he should have seen was too close to safely pass and you blame the CRJ crew!!!
I suppose if he'd run his Peugot into the back of another car at the lights you'd blame the other car too!!
All he had to do was taxi in a straight line at a sensible speed with his EYES OPEN and NOT RUN INTO ANYTHING.......
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i have to ask , why are people actually blaming the smaller aircraft? waiting for someone in hi-vis to bring them to the gate surely is the correct way to operate? and as they were not actually moving at the time and being whacked by the great big A380 ; well the lawyers will earn from this (as seen in this very thread) by saying ` well although he was moving the smaller aircraft is to blame` or ` the taxi ways are too small , as has been reported many times`.
The blame lies squarely in the flight deck of the A380.
Either the Captain didn't follow AF training or SOP's in this regard. Or he didn't follow plain common sense.
Or the blame lies with AF training (or lack thereof) as in the QF Bangkok over run incident.
Or the blame lies with AF rostering patterns that don't afford adequate rest for the crew in JFK.
I don't know what caused this, but whatever reasons they find, the blame most certainly lies in the AF flight deck for one reason or maybe another.
Either the Captain didn't follow AF training or SOP's in this regard. Or he didn't follow plain common sense.
Or the blame lies with AF training (or lack thereof) as in the QF Bangkok over run incident.
Or the blame lies with AF rostering patterns that don't afford adequate rest for the crew in JFK.
I don't know what caused this, but whatever reasons they find, the blame most certainly lies in the AF flight deck for one reason or maybe another.
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Say, Gents...
For those who affirm the blame is only on the AF crew : So, case closed ? Nothing to learn from this accident apart that AF is bad bad bad ? Whoa...
Perhaps that idea pleases you, but what's the point, regarding safer operations
I have no idea of the difficulty of taxiing a liner, let alone a super. I rely on suninmyeyes' post (#67) here, which seems balanced to my untrained eyes.
Surely there are ideas to challenge.
What about a "don't leave the taxiway if you're not going to make it to the gate" rule, for example ?
What about aids for the crew of the A380, adressing the need to see your own wingtips in a crowded environnement ?
Cheers
AZR
For those who affirm the blame is only on the AF crew : So, case closed ? Nothing to learn from this accident apart that AF is bad bad bad ? Whoa...
Perhaps that idea pleases you, but what's the point, regarding safer operations
I have no idea of the difficulty of taxiing a liner, let alone a super. I rely on suninmyeyes' post (#67) here, which seems balanced to my untrained eyes.
Surely there are ideas to challenge.
What about a "don't leave the taxiway if you're not going to make it to the gate" rule, for example ?
What about aids for the crew of the A380, adressing the need to see your own wingtips in a crowded environnement ?
Cheers
AZR
Look, let me try to once again put it into words anyone who has driven a car could understand.
Lets say you're driving along in a large car at night and you come across a vehicle sitting off to the left side of your path, you are unable to move to the right and now you're not quite sure if you can fit through. Instead of stopping and waiting a few minutes you push on through at high speed HOPING to fit through BUT lo and behold you knock off your wing mirrors and damage the other car.......
Now who do you think the Police/insurance assessors will blame?
You cannot assign blame to someone sitting on the side of the road minding their own business because you lack clear vision, judgement or indeed common sense ( in this case Airmanship )
And don't try to say "the A380 crew may not have seen the CRJ" That is no excuse and I don't believe for 1 second they didn't see the CRJ.
Lets say you're driving along in a large car at night and you come across a vehicle sitting off to the left side of your path, you are unable to move to the right and now you're not quite sure if you can fit through. Instead of stopping and waiting a few minutes you push on through at high speed HOPING to fit through BUT lo and behold you knock off your wing mirrors and damage the other car.......
Now who do you think the Police/insurance assessors will blame?
You cannot assign blame to someone sitting on the side of the road minding their own business because you lack clear vision, judgement or indeed common sense ( in this case Airmanship )
And don't try to say "the A380 crew may not have seen the CRJ" That is no excuse and I don't believe for 1 second they didn't see the CRJ.
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In many countries, if you are not properly parked off the road, insurance will not fully cover.
If a lorry has its ass stuck on a railway crossing because there is not enough space ahead, are you going to blame the train engineer for not stopping on time?
Many transportation rules require that one has to stay clear of intersections, crossings, channels and main ways.
If you cannot fit, do not go in. True for big, true for the small.
If a lorry has its ass stuck on a railway crossing because there is not enough space ahead, are you going to blame the train engineer for not stopping on time?
Many transportation rules require that one has to stay clear of intersections, crossings, channels and main ways.
If you cannot fit, do not go in. True for big, true for the small.
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Just wondering about the T2 map posted by Huck in post #111 which states "A=Inner perimeter taxi clockwise" (AF was going the opposite way)
Is that something they've changed around at JFK, and would it have required any extra signage?
Is that something they've changed around at JFK, and would it have required any extra signage?
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A few observations:
1. When trying to calculate taxi speed by using an anti-collision light that flashes, it is pretty essential to know the shutter speed of the camera in relation to the duration of the flash of the anti-coll. For example, you may have a frame rate of 25 frames per second, but your shutter speed may be 1/1000th of a second and the flash duration could be 1/100th of a second. Thus, it is quite possible that your resultant footage will be missing flashes altogether. During each 1/25th of a second, you are only capturing an image for 1/1000th of second. Of course at night it is likely that the shutter speed will be less than 1/1000th of a second, but hopefully you get my point.
2. It may well be that the PIC of the A380 is "to blame" both in principle and in law. But that doesn't mean he will be the sole cause. Blame = who will pay? Cause = what do we fix? In this case, I would be most surprised to find that there are not other contributory factors. Simply blaming the PIC will not prevent this kind of accident from happening again. Let's be clear, it's not just A380s that are involved in this kind of accident. They happen all the time with smaller aircraft too. Many big airports have procedures in place in an attempt to prevent accidents like this. That being the case at JFK, then any investigation will also look at what went wrong there. I'm pretty sure that a decent investigation won't simply blame the PIC and be done with it. You can compare driving a car to taxying an A380 if you like, but let's be honest, it really isn't as simply as that. They worked this out on railways ages ago and as a result you have signalling systems and interlocking to protect trains from one another. You could easily do something similar on taxiways, dividing them up into "block sections" and only allowing one aircraft per block. ATC wouldn't like that. Much easier to blame the PIC I suppose.
3. As a single example, here's a report from a recent collision at Heathrow. You may find it interesting, you may not.
Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A340-311 Boeing 747-436, 4R-ADC G-BNLL
Have fun!
1. When trying to calculate taxi speed by using an anti-collision light that flashes, it is pretty essential to know the shutter speed of the camera in relation to the duration of the flash of the anti-coll. For example, you may have a frame rate of 25 frames per second, but your shutter speed may be 1/1000th of a second and the flash duration could be 1/100th of a second. Thus, it is quite possible that your resultant footage will be missing flashes altogether. During each 1/25th of a second, you are only capturing an image for 1/1000th of second. Of course at night it is likely that the shutter speed will be less than 1/1000th of a second, but hopefully you get my point.
2. It may well be that the PIC of the A380 is "to blame" both in principle and in law. But that doesn't mean he will be the sole cause. Blame = who will pay? Cause = what do we fix? In this case, I would be most surprised to find that there are not other contributory factors. Simply blaming the PIC will not prevent this kind of accident from happening again. Let's be clear, it's not just A380s that are involved in this kind of accident. They happen all the time with smaller aircraft too. Many big airports have procedures in place in an attempt to prevent accidents like this. That being the case at JFK, then any investigation will also look at what went wrong there. I'm pretty sure that a decent investigation won't simply blame the PIC and be done with it. You can compare driving a car to taxying an A380 if you like, but let's be honest, it really isn't as simply as that. They worked this out on railways ages ago and as a result you have signalling systems and interlocking to protect trains from one another. You could easily do something similar on taxiways, dividing them up into "block sections" and only allowing one aircraft per block. ATC wouldn't like that. Much easier to blame the PIC I suppose.
3. As a single example, here's a report from a recent collision at Heathrow. You may find it interesting, you may not.
Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A340-311 Boeing 747-436, 4R-ADC G-BNLL
Have fun!
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Rondun has picked up on something that everybody else seems to have missed - why were they instructed to taxi counter clockwise on the clockwise taxiway (A) - not that it would have made any difference because they could have been taxiing (clockwise) on A to their gate and would still have had the same wingspan from the center line of Alpha.
I wonder if two A380s taxiing in opposite directions on A and B have enough room to pass each other?
Reminds me of the freeway around Paris (peripherique). When driving clockwise around Paris (or Toulouse, they always follow Paris) you take the peripherique intérieur (closest to Paris) and anti clockwise you take the peripherique extérieur!
I wonder if two A380s taxiing in opposite directions on A and B have enough room to pass each other?
Reminds me of the freeway around Paris (peripherique). When driving clockwise around Paris (or Toulouse, they always follow Paris) you take the peripherique intérieur (closest to Paris) and anti clockwise you take the peripherique extérieur!
Prevention, not retribution
@AlphaRomeoZulu
Perhaps A380s should have another level of PIC for taxi, as ships do in port. That would create a LOT of new jobs
.
Well, at JFK you NEED to get in line for TO as soon as possible. Lots of AC and fewer slots. The trend at JFK is to hurry up and get in line. I know, I once experienced a TO delayed by 50+ minutes cause we had to return to gate to add fuel (Alitalia) after waiting in line too long.
Valid comment. In todays hi-tech environment, some basic collision avoidance warning would have paid dividends.
And I now agree with several other posters that we need to skip looking for a blame target(s) and get back to preventing any re-occurence. Those A380s are big MFs. This could have happened almost anywhere.
FN
I have no idea of the difficulty of taxiing a liner, let alone a super. I rely on suninmyeyes' post (#67) here, which seems balanced to my untrained eyes.
.
What about a "don't leave the taxiway if you're not going to make it to the gate" rule, for example ?
What about aids for the crew of the A380, adressing the need to see your own wingtips in a crowded environnement ?
And I now agree with several other posters that we need to skip looking for a blame target(s) and get back to preventing any re-occurence. Those A380s are big MFs. This could have happened almost anywhere.
FN
What a great idea "Perhaps A380s should have another level of PIC for taxi, as ships do in port."
He's called a pilot!
He's called a pilot!
But with lots of local knowledge. Just think of all the new jobs!FN
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Unfortunately there will be more such incidents until the ground facilities at some major US and European airports are upgraded. These taxiways, aprons and parking bays were designed for B707's and the like, and although they can be strengthened for big aircraft, there is usually very little that can be done to widen or make more lateral space due to lack of real estate.
With this limitation and some of the ground control procedures in these places where very often the right hand (ground) doesn't know what the left hand (apron) is doing, the holes on the swiss cheese quickly line up. What to do??
With this limitation and some of the ground control procedures in these places where very often the right hand (ground) doesn't know what the left hand (apron) is doing, the holes on the swiss cheese quickly line up. What to do??