Air France jet clips smaller plane at New York's JFK airport
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Seems to me that the CRJ was waiting for a marshaller, in fact the person walking out may be him. So why then was the CRJ presumed to be clear of the TWY? Can the controller in charge of that patch see? Did the CRJ report he was waiting? Was any kind of local traffic passed? So many questions!
In my patch there are a few unsighted areas of the terminal area. And pilots often do fail to mention they're just sitting off the gate waiting. Hopefully a positive, in the form of tightened procedures, will come out of this.
In my patch there are a few unsighted areas of the terminal area. And pilots often do fail to mention they're just sitting off the gate waiting. Hopefully a positive, in the form of tightened procedures, will come out of this.
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You may find that any number of individuals, groups, procedures, pieces of infrastructure, what have you, caused a situation that lead to this collision.
However in the end you are left with this: A moving aircraft hits a non-moving aircraft. When playing the blame game, it doesn´t get any more clear cut than that.
However in the end you are left with this: A moving aircraft hits a non-moving aircraft. When playing the blame game, it doesn´t get any more clear cut than that.
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We were in an A340 the other night, number 2 to AF A380 in JFK recently, when AF was taxing past us at a rate of knots. They are pushy guys wanting their way all the time.
No doubt the tail light of CRJ would hard to see at night, and the wing span is huge on the A380 and possibly wing tip is not as high as expected, but, at the end of the day, the moving party is going to be doing the explaining.
Had this been daytime, AF would've have stopped or slowed down and the CRJ may have told to move forward. It would go to show that AF would've had to yield and not just blunder thru.
ATC is not responsible for wingtip clearance, but can advise. The sole responsibility lies with the AF PIC. The CRJ had his back to the AF A380 completely so I am surprised he even knew who bumped him.
Many aircraft stop before entering the ramp area and it is understood why, change of frequency, congested area and congested frequency. The CRJ is lucky all are ok. How many of us undo the shoulder straps when taxing in and now, we know why to keep seat belts fastened until the seat belt sign is turned off.
Judging from the picture/movie, I think the movie ends before AF stops completely.
No doubt the tail light of CRJ would hard to see at night, and the wing span is huge on the A380 and possibly wing tip is not as high as expected, but, at the end of the day, the moving party is going to be doing the explaining.
Had this been daytime, AF would've have stopped or slowed down and the CRJ may have told to move forward. It would go to show that AF would've had to yield and not just blunder thru.
ATC is not responsible for wingtip clearance, but can advise. The sole responsibility lies with the AF PIC. The CRJ had his back to the AF A380 completely so I am surprised he even knew who bumped him.
Many aircraft stop before entering the ramp area and it is understood why, change of frequency, congested area and congested frequency. The CRJ is lucky all are ok. How many of us undo the shoulder straps when taxing in and now, we know why to keep seat belts fastened until the seat belt sign is turned off.
Judging from the picture/movie, I think the movie ends before AF stops completely.
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Anyone with time on their hands? An A380 is 238 feet long. Take a look at the video clock. Now time how long it takes from radome to tail cone passing any reference point. Chinagraph on your screen will do. I'd guess you'll come up with something well over 20 Knots/23 MPH if you prefer. No one in their right mind, JFK at night, would taxi an A380 at that speed - and nor did they.
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It could have been prevented using the tail camera (provided they have one and the PF was actually looking at it, and not at the nose wheel cam screen, provided they have one too).
He cleared AF for taxiway A but did alert him to look out for other traffic, and to hold short at ....
Applying blame here I would say 50% AF PIC, 50% ATC.
Applying blame here I would say 50% AF PIC, 50% ATC.
Taxiway chart here to help
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1104/00610AD.PDF
Weather around the time
KJFK 120051Z 19013KT 9SM BKN250 12/10 A2958=
KJFK 112351Z VRB03KT 7SM CLR BKN250 12/10 A2957=
KJFK 112351Z COR VRB03KT 7SM FEW100 BKN250 12/10 A2957=
KJFK 112251Z 20013KT 7SM FEW045 SCT130 BKN250 12/10 A2957=
KJFK 112151Z 19011G18KT 7SM FEW045 SCT130 BKN250 14/11 A2958=
Suzeman
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Yes, he is told to hold short at Echo, AF says for information he can accept Foxtrot - so he is quite prepared to take off from the intersection and certainly not dawdling. "Plan for the full length", is the terse reply.
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As one who has spent a fair portion of my life at JFK I just cant belive that anyone would expect the Ground Controllers to warn crews about every potential collision posibility, {they cant even see some gates} dear God they would never stop talking or come up for air! Its real simple, the buck stops in the left seat, period!
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One thing to consider here - the pilots may have seen the RJ and had no worries, as there is no way to judge where one's airplane is at that scale, one would not rely on eyeballing, particularly at night, when sitting at the wheel of a rolling auditorium - one would have a reasonable expectation that the ground crew had done their jobs properly and that "the RJ I see there to my left, is out of my superjumbo's path..."
-drl
-drl
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CRJ out of its stand ?
Hi all!
From the video made at the ramp, after the "touch"
, I could swear that the CRJ was out of the stand. If that is true it'll be a key information to know why.
I honestlly don't believe the speed of the A380 was a factor for this mishap. It would clip the CRJ anyway
if the smaller plane was in fact out of it's stand.
If on the other hand, this was Air France's fault....it is becoming a dangerous airline to fly...
Saúde!
From the video made at the ramp, after the "touch"
, I could swear that the CRJ was out of the stand. If that is true it'll be a key information to know why. I honestlly don't believe the speed of the A380 was a factor for this mishap. It would clip the CRJ anyway
if the smaller plane was in fact out of it's stand.If on the other hand, this was Air France's fault....it is becoming a dangerous airline to fly...
Saúde!
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deSitter:
I'm amazed that the A380 doesn't have cameras for just this purpose. Lacking that, if there is an iota of doubt, the safe course of action is to stop the aircraft and request confirmation of clearance.
One thing to consider here - the pilots may have seen the RJ and had no worries, as there is no way to judge where one's airplane is at that scale, one would not rely on eyeballing, particularly at night, when sitting at the wheel of a rolling auditorium - one would have a reasonable expectation that the ground crew had done their jobs properly and that "the RJ I see there to my left, is out of my superjumbo's path..."
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Common sense is great, but the human visual system has limitations. I doubt anyone could judge to within say 10 feet the distance of something 120 feet distant directly ahead, not to say, to one side, particularly when sitting high up with attention focused on taxiing an ocean liner.
-drl
-drl
Genuine question: are the wingtips of an A380 visible from the LHS on the flightdeck?
Would have thought it easily possible that they might not be.
Seeing as everybody is throwing their two pence in, I think ATC should have spotted the threat here. "Caution the CRJ parking on stand xx, when he's on stand, continue taxi..." From the audio, the AF gets a number of contradictory taxi instructions for taxiways further on, meaning one of the pilots could have been 'heads in' checking the taxi chart at the time of collision.
I believe that a number of airfields make follow-me cars mandatory for A380 ops.
Would have thought it easily possible that they might not be.
Seeing as everybody is throwing their two pence in, I think ATC should have spotted the threat here. "Caution the CRJ parking on stand xx, when he's on stand, continue taxi..." From the audio, the AF gets a number of contradictory taxi instructions for taxiways further on, meaning one of the pilots could have been 'heads in' checking the taxi chart at the time of collision.
I believe that a number of airfields make follow-me cars mandatory for A380 ops.
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let's face it boys and girls, if a plane is stopped and another plane is moving, who is really at fault? every rule requires us to visually avoid collision...visiblity was obviously OK and low vis procedures were not in effect.
AS the air france is likely to record it speeds, even on the ground, it will be interesting to see the exact speed.
grumpyold geeks analysis is right on.
if I may add...I would think that the captain on the AF probably was more comfortable with flying the concorde...joke...due to its super fast speed...ha.
I do offer this serious suggestion...that ALL super jumbo planes be escorted with pilot cars at all four points...nose, wing tips left and right, and tail...that the escort cars be in radio contact with ATC and Captain of escorted aircraft.
That a speed limit of 5 knots on the IRS be enforced with a bitcy woman's voice...You are going too fast you dumb ass.
AS the air france is likely to record it speeds, even on the ground, it will be interesting to see the exact speed.
grumpyold geeks analysis is right on.
if I may add...I would think that the captain on the AF probably was more comfortable with flying the concorde...joke...due to its super fast speed...ha.
I do offer this serious suggestion...that ALL super jumbo planes be escorted with pilot cars at all four points...nose, wing tips left and right, and tail...that the escort cars be in radio contact with ATC and Captain of escorted aircraft.
That a speed limit of 5 knots on the IRS be enforced with a bitcy woman's voice...You are going too fast you dumb ass.
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Even with the F-ME car in front of the A380 it would be dificult to see it there was clerance. The F-ME goes ahead of the plane and far from the wingtip...and worse, at night!!! The key for this, is in the reason why the CRJ was not INside its parking stand... 
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Maybe this will be a wakeup call to the dangers of mixing large transports with swarms of pestilential RJs manned by inexperienced crews. At Atlanta, the RJ pest is confined mostly to one concourse, where they can get in each others' ways without impacting real aviation at all
-drl
-drl
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"..man with a red flag.."
..being dragged by the leash behind a bomb-sniffing dog!
I seem to remember they make the A380 at LAX park in the boonies. But you know how strict they are in LA regarding parking.
-drl
..being dragged by the leash behind a bomb-sniffing dog!
I seem to remember they make the A380 at LAX park in the boonies. But you know how strict they are in LA regarding parking.
-drl
You cannot ignore the basic fact that when two aircraft collide and one of those aircraft is stationary, the moving aircraft is prima facie at fault. There's no need for a debate about speed - even if the latest footage shows they were taxying too quickly - and there's no scope for arguing contributory negligence by ATC or the RJ. The AF pilot made an error of judgment.