Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Fakers, fakers everywhere!

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Fakers, fakers everywhere!

Old 15th Apr 2011, 14:11
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,408
Many years ago a New Zealand CPL turned up at a South Pacific island claiming lots of hours check and training in BN Islanders as well as extensive hours on Chieftains. The chief pilot soon discovered this pilot could not even start an Islander without resorting to a written checklist to tell him what to do next. Investigation of his log book certainly revealed extensive Chieftain time all written in immaculate style with the same pen for weeks at a time with most days flying being between 4-7 hours a day. But comparing the distances between the various destinations, it soon became obvious that the ground speed must have averaged 300 knots for each leg.. in a Chieftain.
A37575 is offline  
Old 15th Apr 2011, 19:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: retirementland
Age: 75
Posts: 767
The chief pilot soon discovered this pilot could not even start an Islander without resorting to a written checklist to tell him what to do next.
I hope I know what you mean.
I hope you don't mean that checklists aren't necessary
Shell Management is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2011, 08:25
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,408
I hope you don't mean that checklists aren't necessary
There is a place for checklists providing they are concise and not so full of superfluous items that pilots skip reading them.

In the case mentioned it was clear the Islander pilot who claimed check and training time on type was so reliant on the checklist as a crutch to lean on that without it he had no idea how to fly the aeroplane.

The basic scan left to right for before start and after start checks in ab-initio aircraft such as Cessna and Piper singles, is essential knowledge before first solo. For example, I was once given a student who already had 10 hours dual on a Cessna 150 and had yet to go solo. After we had settled in our seats, I asked him to go ahead and start the engine.

He apologised and said he had left his checklist in his car. I said that's OK - you don't need a written checklist to fly a Cessna- just use scan flow. The poor student admitted he hadn't a clue how to get the engine going because his instructor had always used a checklist even for a pre-flight inspection.

To him the written checklist was a crutch. After he was shown a left to right scan we got airborne but not without a delay because he did not know the pre-take off checks unless he had a written checklist.

After landing, he taxied in and was embarrased to admit he did not know how to shut down the engine without a checklist. I felt sorry for him because he had really been left in the lurch by his previous junior instructors who themselves had barely 400 hours each. The blind leading the blind.

With airline aircraft, the required checks are made by scan and although numerous switches and gauges are checked during the scan, often the written checklist contains only essential items as a confirmation.

With light aircraft, it is important from the airmanship and pilot confidence point of view, that students and private pilots are competent to operate the aircraft without falling back on the crutch of written checklists. If a regulator demands checklist use then it should be only for the vital actions before take off. The operative words are vital actions.

These amount to perhaps six items sometimes known as "killer items". These items are specific to the aircraft type. In that case, the pilot should first complete the items in a scan method. Then if required, refer to a written checklist to confirm those items have been completed. Rambling lengthy written checklists are counter-productive. Items get skipped because instinctively the pilot knows they are superfluous.
A37575 is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2011, 13:50
  #24 (permalink)  
Aluminum Tubing Inspector
Aluminum Tubing Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 997
Fakers in other areas of the Industry too...

Whilst on the subject of fakers, I was rather unfortunate to do some consulting work for a now defunct Aerospace/ Aviation recruitment company. I was paid and had several overseas trips and had a reasonably enjoyable time for a few months. I know you have to start somewhere but I was appalled that the owner of the company was masquerading as, not just, a recruitment professional but also an aviation and aerospace professional! He got away with it and milked money from several unsuspecting organisations which he then used to fund the next round of business trips. He also acted as an interim HR Manager for one of the exec operations in the UAE. He could certainly write the book, "How to Blag Your Way In Aerospace/ Aviation Recruitment!" Needless to say the "company" (it was only him really and few ad-hoc staff) went bust last year and he was soon in the role of MD for one of the many aerospace consortiums. I have recently found out that he is now Head of Ops at a reputable staffing organisation and it just makes me wonder - how the heck do these people get away with it for so long??? No naming and shaming but beware of the silver surfer who knows more about fruit than he does our industry
homesick rae is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2011, 15:59
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: gashbag
Age: 48
Posts: 556
A37575, dont you go brining you old school attitudes to JAR land. How is a 200 hr wonderkid supposed to fly a boeing without a checklist or QRH to blindly follow when it goes tits
PURPLE PITOT is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2011, 16:16
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
I think there may be a degree of misunderstanding here. Different types of operation have different emphases - we should not deride one or the other. In order to go through the secondary school of scan flows on a Cessna, it is vital to go through the primary school of aircraft checklist discipline. For any of you that have flown in a military fast jet or similar, you will know a considerable emphasis is put on checklist knowledge and memorisation. The civil airline world, for very good reasons, has chosen not to do that and rigid checklist adherence is considered a virtue. It is not necessarily helpful to get into a discussion as to who is right and who is wrong - it is, however, vital to embrace the practices that prevail in whatever field of aviation you are in. I am now a civil pilot and have fully taken aboard the requirement for use of checklists - any deviation from that would rightly be regarded as an unwarranted departure from SOPs and would inevitably unnerve my flight deck colleagues. There is an important discipline in being able to use the QRHs, checklists etc on a commercial jet airliner - it is a skill that must be embraced if you are to be considered a professional in that world. That does not mean that scan flows/memorisation etc do not have their place - it does mean that is simply not how the commercial world works.
Norman Stanley Fletcher is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2011, 16:20
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: gashbag
Age: 48
Posts: 556
Sarcasm, despite being the lowest form of wit, is also a double edged sword
PURPLE PITOT is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2011, 23:22
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: `
Posts: 309
Pre solo, I wrote down all the checklists that were used in the circuit and rejoining. From memory they came to about 112. Never once used a written checklist in the aircraft but did learn them by rote at home and possibly even sitting in the cabin on the ground when learning where all the switches and gauges were.

Watch a Youtube video in horror where the pilot was taking a friend on a jolly and he was using a written checklist to start a PA28.
Brakes On
Fuel fullest Tank
Mixture Rich
Throttle Set
Carb Heat Cold
Friction Lock Set
Master Switch On
Fuel Pump On
Check Pressure
Check ALL CLEAR
Crank

Where is the need for a written list here? (obviously there are pre and post start checks as well)

What happens when they experience and EFATO or a FLWOP? Whip out the checklist????

I was I trained in a golden era where low time C Cats (17 hours training to get a Destructor Rating) knew their stuff or am I just a cynical old fart? (Actually, I am not that old)
Biggles78 is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2011, 02:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 543
The thread is drifting... to a major degree.
MTOW is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2011, 10:59
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,408
The thread is drifting... to a major degree.
Ye Gods - you are right. But stories about fakers are so depressing so bear with one more story..


In another life I was a RAAF instructor on Tiger Moths, Wirraways and then the new trainer the Winjeel (similar in looks to the Provost).

There was some concern that students going directly to Winjeels as their first elementary type would have trouble coping as it was a different beast to ye olde Tiger Moth the current trainer.

To our surprise students still went solo after 8-10 hours of dual instruction -same as the Tiger Moth. Yet clearly the Winjeel was more complex in systems.
The RAAF CFS taught a standard pre-take off check which applied to all types from Dakota to Mustang-obviously with minor variations here and there.
Fast forward to present day in most Australian flying schools where the average time to first solo seems to be around 15-25 hours. But that's another story.

Again in Australia the Winjeels are called "War Birds" although I don't remember the Winjeel ever going to war. I saw one a few months ago and asked the owner if I could sit in the cockpit. It was quite familiar. Except for a vast roller-blind paper checklist stuck on the coaming. Fascinated, I scrolled through no less than 137 items of which the first item was "Gooday" Ah! - so Aussie in character. There were over 100 scrolled items to wind through before airborne. Unbelievable. The last item on the checklist was "Don't forget to lock the canopy".

Last edited by A37575; 17th Apr 2011 at 11:19.
A37575 is offline  
Old 18th Apr 2011, 02:56
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ceduna
Age: 67
Posts: 62
memories, memories and old wounds Potteroo for bringing up 1989. True we have a few dishonourable first officer chaps who ventured into the grey holes of Africa and Middle East only to surface in Korean as widebody skippers; and instructing the Koreans to boot! Miracles of miracles.
Tipsy Barossa is offline  
Old 18th Apr 2011, 03:14
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: dubai
Posts: 944
I think you will find in most walks of life people have "bd their way to high office". Whether you think being a pilot is high office is a matter of opinion I guess.

A37575.

Yes things have changed. My lowest time to send a student solo was 5 hours dual. Yes looking back, risky, but if they are ready, cut them loose I say/said.
doubleu-anker is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2011, 11:37
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Returning to the story, there is a real issue here that needs to be addressed. A very interesting story is being run by CNN.

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

I was very disappointed with the line taken - 'it's only corruption and there is no danger to passengers'. It seems self-evident to me that if you were not able to obtain a flying licence by normal means and have not done the necessary tests then there is a clear danger to passengers. Have a look and decide for yourselves.
Norman Stanley Fletcher is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2011, 16:02
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: in a cigar lounge smoking a Partagas P2
Posts: 74
Just saw the video on CNN - warped logic in that police chief's answer too : " He was just taking money, not bribes ..... "
foxcharliep2 is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2011, 16:20
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,516
Just saw the video on CNN - warped logic in that police chief's answer too : " He was just taking money, not bribes .....
And also the interviewed flight instructor, "The public shouldn't worry as pilots are subjected to competency tests" !
stuckgear is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2011, 20:48
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: South
Age: 34
Posts: 21
Hey guys...I'm glad this matter is being noticed broadly.
Here in Argentina the most famous pen brand is called BIC, and thaere are a LOT of pilots that flew the "LV-BIC" lol (as a side note, there exists a BE90 with reg LV-BIC, but the joke still goes on).

I lol'd but there's nothing funny in this. I have several friends that worked their arses out to reach for the minimums (1000hrs) required for the major airlines, and then when there's finally a general recruitment coming up, lots of self-proclaimed pilots that legally flew something around 200hrs came up with logbooks full of dirt and where taken.

I know examples of pilots that received their PPL and instantly started to instruct pilot-wannabes. As in every ICAO country, this is not legally possible.
BTW, they're flying for AR now.
sdelarminat is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2011, 09:24
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: by the seaside
Age: 70
Posts: 854
Had a Brit in a major european company who was a clerk - he got caught out at a party masquerading as a FO.
I shared a flat with him and he would come out with some bullshit of being a copilot to Prince Andrew in the Falklands war.
He went on to found a recruitment company.

But then again my first major airline had training captains who flew 99.9% of the time with the autopilot on - when they disconnected it I very quickly realized that they had a struggle to fly.
Still passed their checks.
30 years later I was forwarded a list of members of a certain society and there was a comprehensive list of many of the i***ts in management and training and of course a couple of aviation authority names!!!!
blind pew is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2011, 10:49
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
What was very apparent in the CNN video was that a senior police officer, charged with investigating corruption in aviation, could not bring himself to call the paying of money for a flying licence as a 'bribe'. It is a critical omission, because until you can see such practices as morally wrong and as criminal acts you are nowhere. You then have Captain Blah, who is allegedly in charge of a flying school that produces these pilots, openly declaring this is not a big deal as no one is really endangered by people paying for licences rather than passing the necessary ground and flight tests. The inevitable conclusion is that these two gentlemen are, to a greater or lesser extent, complicit in what has been going on. They somehow think that because these pilots go on to pass an airline LPC/OPC (again under unknown financial arrangements), this somehow means no danger exists. For a westerner like myself, this is simply incomprehensible, yet that mindset seems to pervade Indian and possibly Chinese aviation. The sin appears to be getting caught rather than the committing of the offence.
Norman Stanley Fletcher is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2011, 13:07
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Age: 73
Posts: 26
In a country where an examinee in a university graduate program merely writes his cell phone number on his exam paper so the grader can call him to arrange the bribe payment for a passing score, what do you really expect?

Bribery and corruption are firmly entrenched. It is a way of life. I would expect the initial arrests were motivated by some dispute over sharing bribe money or whose relatives would get a particular position. Its simply too much of a universal practice throughout all levels of society there for anyone to have upset the apple-cart for what we would term a proper motive.
FoolsGold is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2011, 16:27
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Age: 73
Posts: 26
Concerning this Indian police officer who was hesitant to call paying money for a pilot's license a bribe, Indian laws and Indian culture are at play here. If you pay money directly to the person who issues a license it is a bribe, if it is paid to a third party such as a cousin, brother or sister then it is not termed a bribe. That distinction, which is absurd to us, is critical in their culture and virtually their entire economy.

In the example of an engineering student writing only his name and cell phone number on an exam paper, the money would not be paid directly to the exam-grader but instead to a relative of the exam-grader. Then the exam-grader fills out a perfect score paper. Paying the exam-grader directly would be considered a bribe.
FoolsGold is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.