Southwest FLT 812 Decompression and diversion
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Shell Management:
They spent a huge amount of money retrofitting all their aircraft to be able to do RNP AR. Then, they are pushing complex, multi-path RNP AR IAPs at all their airports to hopefully save a bit of fuel here and there.
This was not the original objective of RNP AR, but SWA has forced the issue at the highest levels of the FAA. They are a very tough player.
The past history of SDRs as SWA is very concerning as it smacks of Aloha but on a far bigger scale.
Its another sign that airlines need to invest in SMS introduction to manage this sort of problem better.
I for one had not realised that they had not been investing in new aircraft like Ryanair.
Its another sign that airlines need to invest in SMS introduction to manage this sort of problem better.
I for one had not realised that they had not been investing in new aircraft like Ryanair.
This was not the original objective of RNP AR, but SWA has forced the issue at the highest levels of the FAA. They are a very tough player.
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Seems there might have been some warning?..
Southwest to ground 81 planes after hole prompts emergency landing - CNN.com
Southwest to ground 81 planes after hole prompts emergency landing - CNN.com
I heard a loud popping sound about three or four minutes before it blew open on us,
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aterpster - not sure why you think that investment in aging aircraft is a postive one.
I wonder if that attitude has had a negative effect on safety.
..SWA has forced the issue at the highest levels of the FAA. They are a very tough player.
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Shell Management:
Did I state or imply that? The only investment aging aircraft should get is increased maintenance, especially heavy maintenance
aterpster - not sure why you think that investment in aging aircraft is a postive one.
I wonder if that attitude has had a negative effect on safety.
Their flt ops culture seems to be quite good. But, overall, it is not the same spirited outfit it was when Herb ran the show.
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sevenstrokeroll:
The Air Force doesn't try to cut costs in the B52 program. Also, I suspect the cycles per flight hours is very low.
lot of older planes out there...our B52's are in their 50's...but they constantly get rebuilt
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Better understanding
Have 2 questions for U guys out there:
a) Where do you find the cycle and hours data for a given airframe ? If you feel uncomfortable posting the answer, a private message is fine.
b) Given that the low cost airlines will automatically end up with high cycles and relatively high hours on short haul aircraft how do the different airframe retention concepts of SW v. the 2 major european players affect safety and incident statistics ? (run forever to get as big a bang for your investment buck v. replace while still in prime of life and optimise on second hand value at times when new airframes are at a premium due to short supply).
a) Where do you find the cycle and hours data for a given airframe ? If you feel uncomfortable posting the answer, a private message is fine.
b) Given that the low cost airlines will automatically end up with high cycles and relatively high hours on short haul aircraft how do the different airframe retention concepts of SW v. the 2 major european players affect safety and incident statistics ? (run forever to get as big a bang for your investment buck v. replace while still in prime of life and optimise on second hand value at times when new airframes are at a premium due to short supply).
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AP reports:
Federal investigators say the entire length of a 5-foot-long tear in the skin of a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 shows evidence of pre-existing fatigue cracking.
It started along a lap joint where two sections of the Boeing 737-300's skin are riveted together.
Southwest mechanics will cut the entire ripped section out of the plane on Sunday. Sumwalt says he expects a 9-foot by 3-foot section will be sent to Washington D.C., for analysis.
Southwest mechanics will cut the entire ripped section out of the plane on Sunday. Sumwalt says he expects a 9-foot by 3-foot section will be sent to Washington D.C., for analysis.
Where do you find the cycle and hours data for a given airframe ? If you feel uncomfortable posting the answer, a private message is fine.
b) Given that the low cost airlines will automatically end up with high cycles and relatively high hours on short haul aircraft how do the different airframe retention concepts of SW v. the 2 major european players affect safety and incident statistics ? (run forever to get as big a bang for your investment buck v. replace while still in prime of life and optimise on second hand value at times when new airframes are at a premium due to short supply).
b) Given that the low cost airlines will automatically end up with high cycles and relatively high hours on short haul aircraft how do the different airframe retention concepts of SW v. the 2 major european players affect safety and incident statistics ? (run forever to get as big a bang for your investment buck v. replace while still in prime of life and optimise on second hand value at times when new airframes are at a premium due to short supply).
The airframe hours and cycles are part of the required record keeping and of course one of the first things the NTSB will publized after they are vetted.
Fleet management has many considerations, commonality, market fit, repair and maintenance, etc. regardless of new or old safety management is a task shared by the operator, the manufacturer and the regulator. So in my mind there is no intent to see how far you can run an airplane to see if it will break catstrophicaly. Anywhere along the line, human error and/or ignorance (surprise factor) is present. No way would I predict anything else. I await some more specific investigative facts before delving more deeply into anything more.
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cessnapete:
Correlation based on random observations is not useful.
737 deliveries since 1999:
Old Fleets
Ryanair still getting new airframes. 3 new 737 on the flightline at Seattle when I passed an hour ago!!
Ryanair still getting new airframes. 3 new 737 on the flightline at Seattle when I passed an hour ago!!
Correlation based on random observations is not useful.
737 deliveries since 1999:
Southwest = 320
Ryanair = 300
737 orders in last year:Ryanair = 300
Southwest = 28
Ryanair = 0
Ryanair = 0
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drifting
I found discussion on another forum in relation to this accident that allegedly Southwest ask their pilots to do firm landings (hard landings?). I am not going to repeat the whole line of argument how this claim might relate to this accident but I would like to verify if there is any truth in it in case there are some SWA pilots around here.
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You are neglecting the "options" that RYR turned into orders, no point in placing any more orders when you have the fleet size you want and new players offerring more attractive price/equipment propositions
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deSitter
Aluminum fuselage construction involves a series of hoop like frames that give shape to the fuselage. If fatigue cracking initiates on the inner or outer face of the hoop, it can progress until it cracks through all portions of the hoop, finally completely severing the hoop's continuity. At that point, all pressurization loads are being entirely handled by the skin in the area of the severed hoop (frame).
One can envision the entire fuselage tube bending down aft of the wing during turbulence and during firm landings. The tube bends by flattening its outside radius in the area of the bend. The frames resist this flattening which is how they become exposed to fatigue.
Note: Those who design aircraft structure are welcome to improve on this description--Not my area of specialty.
Regarding the AD, what exactly is a severed frame? TIA
One can envision the entire fuselage tube bending down aft of the wing during turbulence and during firm landings. The tube bends by flattening its outside radius in the area of the bend. The frames resist this flattening which is how they become exposed to fatigue.
Note: Those who design aircraft structure are welcome to improve on this description--Not my area of specialty.
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I don't fly for southwest...but landings are like sandpaper...use the rougher grades in certain circumstances, the smoother grades in other situations.
plus, it is a bit of luck getting a smooth landing.
actually, firm landings in some circumstances are the safest ones to do.
plus, it is a bit of luck getting a smooth landing.
actually, firm landings in some circumstances are the safest ones to do.
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Machaca, Your post was of no use to anyone.
However to add to the pointless posts, with regards to SWA & RYR.
Fact, RYR only have 737NG aircraft and are retiring the oldest airframes, SWA still have B737 classics.
One other pointless fact, an MRO that has FAA approval, does not need to have Mechanics or Inspectors with an FAA licence, thank God.
If you have seen some of the FAA registered aircraft that have gone through overseas MRO's, then you would all change your opinion on how good FAA operators are.
However to add to the pointless posts, with regards to SWA & RYR.
Fact, RYR only have 737NG aircraft and are retiring the oldest airframes, SWA still have B737 classics.
One other pointless fact, an MRO that has FAA approval, does not need to have Mechanics or Inspectors with an FAA licence, thank God.
If you have seen some of the FAA registered aircraft that have gone through overseas MRO's, then you would all change your opinion on how good FAA operators are.
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In the UK, look at BMI Baby...
I cant remember if theyve got rid of all their 300's but I'm sure there are still some around and even their 500 series 737's are getting old.
Some used to be ex BMI and I believe they had an ex BA one too.
Some are over 10 years old. Most of them 15 years or more.
I like BMIBaby but dont you think it is time they renewed some of their aircraft.
I cant remember if theyve got rid of all their 300's but I'm sure there are still some around and even their 500 series 737's are getting old.
Some used to be ex BMI and I believe they had an ex BA one too.
Some are over 10 years old. Most of them 15 years or more.
I like BMIBaby but dont you think it is time they renewed some of their aircraft.
