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IndiGo with more fake pilots

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IndiGo with more fake pilots

Old 28th Mar 2011, 20:42
  #41 (permalink)  
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Avionimc,

May I ask what did you do when that first officer was talking on the phone or sending texts when flying? Were you not the PIC and had the authority to tell him to put his phone away? Who did you blame for the FO who couldn't buckle his seat belt? I'd say that his SFI/TRI is equally to be blamed; I remember the first time I used the five point harness, I didn't know how to use it but my instructor was more than happy to show me how to use it.

Don't take me wrong, I've had my share of green first officers in India, some of them did think that they were God's gift to aviation. I wasn't a check pilot or TRI but I would mentor them, ask questions and when a daughter of DGCA officer couldn't tell me memory item I told her that I'd call her dad and let him know. You bet next time I flew with her she knew all of the memory items.

There is a difference between fake pilots and inexperienced first officers. It is part of our job as captains to mentor the next generation, like we were taught by our peers.

I say it is a good start that at least DGCA is taking some action against pilots who used forged documents. It will definitely scare the hell out of everyone and they wont forge the documents for sure. I am glad that DGCA is checking all the license issued till date; I bet there are a lot of scared pilots in India.
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Old 28th Mar 2011, 23:58
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Ultimately some fakes and corrupt DGCA officials will be brought to justice But at the end of the day what for. Like all other scams in India, this too will disappear and there will still remain a plethora of fake pilots and corrupt members in the DGCA and the Indian Government that will remain unpunished.

The rest of the free world needs to send India the same message sent to other countries banned from their airspace.

A poster in another thread feels that pilots who bribed the DGCA should be compensated for personal damages.

ICAO, and every aviation agency round the world need to take immediate action against the DGCA, and all Indian Airlines operating within their airspace. Some may say that these measures are extreme. Remember do to safety violations, many airlines from Africa and Indonesia have banned from the EU and the US. India needs to be added to this list until responsibility on their behalf has been demonstrated.

Ufortunately, Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft Ramp Inspections (SAFA) merely serve as a process to see if the fraudulent documents in the possession of these illegals are current. Given the state of the DGCA’s ineptitude as well as record keeping procedures, I can’t see the DGCA being motivated as a cooperating entity with other aviation agencies.

Anyone ever been to the offices of the DGCA in Delhi? Words cannot describe the state of the offices of the DGCA. It’s one of those sights that one need to witness for themselves. Shear filth and disgrace.

Call me a cynic, but this is what I foresee... IMO the DGCA will discover more fraudulent certificates than they were banking on. We can all agree the DGCA and the Indian Government want this embarrassment to disappear. With that being said, I’ll wager a month’s pay that the DGCA will take their pens, (ala a magic wands) and by the miracle of the Indian Sky Gods, make those fraudulent certificates into legitimate ones.

A team of aviation inspectors comprised from other nations should be created at the insistence of ICAO and other nations. This team needs to audit ATPL pilot certificates of those airmen operating beyond the borders of India. As corruption and incompetence is so perverse, oversight of the Indian DGCA is essential.

Immediate action must be taken to ensure the safety of the innocents both onboard VT registered aircraft and on the ground.

The cost should be borne by the Indian Government, or DGCA or both.
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Old 29th Mar 2011, 07:42
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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DGCA yet to IMPROVE iTS FUNCTIONING
Unfortunately all this is happening in the centenary year of Indian aviation. Even if all the noises made at the DGCA and by the Minister can help them set the house in order, would it be all be worth celebrating (which incidentally is officially being celebrated by the Ministry of Civil Aviation).
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Old 30th Mar 2011, 13:08
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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fake hours

When I was in Flight School in New York many guys from India were there and they all logged many fake hours in their logbooks. I sat and watched in awe as they did this, I think many of them are now Captains in India as this was about 20 years ago.
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Old 30th Mar 2011, 19:33
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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No Greens, mostly Red Faces

Desi: of course, and there is more to the story, these CPL had been flying for months.

Still, a twenty something commercial pilot should be mature enough [to know] not to text sms in flight from the flight deck while on flight duty. Same with the guy unable to buckle his seat belt (even a six year old kid would find out in a few minutes). Similarly, in the incident of VT-AXJ: the copilot did not wear his shoulder harness, for some reason he decided to adjust his seat but did not know how, caused the AP to disconnect, was unable re-engage the AP, caused the aircraft to dive and was unable to recover. He then caused the aircraft to dive even further and then, as if it was not enough, he opposed forces to the captain who was desperately trying to recover.My point is that these kind of CPL, would be pilots, should not be allowed anywhere near a real aircraft.

There are many young copilots, not yet experienced but with minimum aptitudes, with genuine desire to fly and to learn. Everyone learns on any flight. It is a pleasure to fly and work with them. Unfortunately they are the exception rather than the norm here. Probably because they do not have the required connections to land strait in the RH seat.
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Old 5th Apr 2011, 10:01
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Well happy days... the CIB nabs one or two DGCA officials and a couple of more fake pilots. Geez. even a microsoft pilot has more credibility than these fakes.

Well anyway since the case has been cracked wide open by the best that the Indian CIB has to offer case closed?

Well now off for another scandel... the Indian Telecom system.

You gotta love it.
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Old 6th Apr 2011, 05:49
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I say, the CBI had better start easing up, or there will be no one left, at the DGCA, as they will all be in jail! In fact, that may not be such a bad thing!!
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 05:35
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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now Indigo CEO asks pilots to own up....

Any takers from within ????? I think this is definitely worrying some people at the top....Indigo has hired quite a lot in the last few years considering their meteoric expansion....they are worried maybe????IndiGo asks its pilots to come clean on forged documents - The Economic Times
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 13:35
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Hey... lets not stop there!!! What about the AMEs conducting medicals on pilots... Are they fakes or legit!?!?


Makes one ponder doesn't it...

Last edited by captjns; 8th Apr 2011 at 15:17.
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 15:13
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So how to move forward?

Is commercial aviation going to stop in India? No. Are there enough properly qualified pilots in India? Probably not. Are there "fake pilots" in the system who can do the job? Probably yes. Are there pilots who need dismissing? Definitely yes. But maybe all is not lost...

The DGCA have to come up with some sort of plan to identify the people who can actually fly and dispose of those who can not. Failure to do so may place some operators in a position whereby they can't afford insurance which will the mean their leases are in default. Worse than that, the ghoulish spectre of smoking holes (Indian rail crash style) may raise its ugly head (again). Corruption, nepotism and poor standards are eating the heart out of Indian aviation and the DGCA should start fixing the problem PDQ. So, how about using the sim as a chopping tool (am I really saying this?) ? I don't mean pressing the buttons until the thing crashes, but do some real simple N-1 stuff with appropriate Technical, Legal and Flight Safety questions beforehand. The session could be part of the recurrent checks. Then those that get through could be given a real ATPL revalidation (ie. they have demonstrated competence) and those that fail are chopped. Furthermore, make it so that those who get chopped get an automatic jail sentence if they are later proved to have submitted forged paperwork. Video each session with multiple recorders and once the recording are de-identfied, release them on the internet, then announce the results to the candidates. This way it can be demonstrated very publicly that the system is being cleaned up, that the sub-standard are being removed and only those who are competent (even if only to low standard) are allowed to fly. Yes, the bludgers who cheated and bought their way in may still end up with a job, but at least they will have proved that they can fly.
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 15:22
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with corruption within India is so endemic, not only within the aviation sector, but all areas that are regulated by the government. There is no other way of putting it but India is out of control. Those taking bribes are the only ones who have their fingers on the pulse.

With that being said, self policing is just not an option. The public deserves more reliable assurances. Oversight committees from other agencies such as EASA or FAA need to be created and approved by ICAO.
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 15:36
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So, how about using the sim as a chopping tool (am I really saying this?) ? I don't mean pressing the buttons until the thing crashes, but do some real simple N-1 stuff with appropriate Technical, Legal and Flight Safety questions beforehand. The session could be part of the recurrent checks. Then those that get through could be given a real ATPL revalidation
The thing is PM, the corruption and nepotism remains, so as long as the familiy connections are in place, or a suitable 'contribution' is made to the tester, all boxes ticked satisfactory and off it goes again.

ICAO should have stepped in a long time ago and limited Indian registered aircraft on international operations until the DGCA gets the enema it needs.

Last edited by stuckgear; 13th Apr 2011 at 07:16.
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Old 8th Apr 2011, 18:55
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Got to agree with TopTup - NEVER fly on an Indian registered aeroplane You ARE risking your life

Forget the PC nonsense, this is reality And as for operating in and out of the Indian airports? Well, it's frustrating at best and dodgy at worst...
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Old 9th Apr 2011, 01:20
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White Knight... I would have no problem flying a VT reggy aircraft provided I am PIC. I know my airman and medical certificates are both legit and valid as FAA records will demonstrate back to 1972.

Most of the F/Os are pretty decent spot on lasses and lads and spot on their game too.

I do try to avoid the Bollywood types who don the Raybans after dusk and need a crane to lift the arm their watches are adorned on their wrists.

As with the Bollywood types, a landing is not a landing unless it is a CFIT onto the runway along with rhythmic swaying from one side to the other side of the runway and massive amounts of breaking and deafening trust reverse that passengers get concussions because of mass trauma to the head as they hit the seat backs in front of them.
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Old 9th Apr 2011, 03:37
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Relief....!!!!!

Top,

Your post has taken a real load off my shoulders.
For months I have carried around with me exactly what we see in Indian aviation....be it scheduled or un-scheduled. I could not have said it better.

At times I wanted to vent by posting here. As you can see, I am a "newbie" but have lurked here for years.

Every time I hear about "another fake license", I just smile to myself.
If the reporting of such would be done by anyone who understood what it takes to get to the "left seat".....they would have far more to write about.

Not many months ago.....I was holding short for a night departure at a southern Indian airport.

A "bus" had been cleared into position to wait.......just ahead of us.
In her 90 degree turn to the line-up she made an announcement to the tower.

We talked about her comments for days.

It seems that in her turn from the taxi-way onto the runway she had scanned past another runway which was 30 degrees off her assigned/active runway.

She demanded that the tower turn off those lights......that she was "confused". I say no more.

I am TRI/E here in India. Been here for 3 years. No agency....I really did not want to come.

The bottom line is training......from the ground up.
Tailwheel experience to learn what rudder pedals are for.

I would bet that you, like me, were able to rent a 172, take three buddies and go scare yourselves ****less. 18 year old CFI's are not bulletproof.

It is the lack of an infrastructure which would allow Indian pilots to gain experience rather than pretend they had it. (....then lie about it, pay for it)

I used to call my IFR students when the weather was low. We would go shoot approaches without any view-limiting devices.
We did good just to see a runway at minimums!

Can you imagine explaining to ATC that you are going to shoot multiple approaches to minimums for experience and fun?
Hell, I find it painful to jump through all the hoops we must just to fly away for a couple weeks.

Just seems to me.....an American pilot with many "there I was...." stories, that the DGCA is the problem....plain and simple.

Give the Indians a break. They are smart....resourceful.
With proper training and a system which is more in line with the "outside" world.....Indian aviation will proliferate with safe Indian pilots.

The pilots here must learn that 300 hours total means very little, unfortunately. Get out the flame thrower.

Age-old "catch 22"......how can they get the experience? Impossible as things are now.

No film processing runs....to overnight parcel....no bank checks flown to a reserve.....no on-demand medevac....no freight dogs.....all the ways we got our OJT. (single pilot/single engine IFR...looking back that sounds scary!)

There seems to be no other place than a scheduled airline here to learn how to fly. There is more to being a pilot than flipping switches.
With auto pilot and auto throttle......God help them. These are crutches and make the real airman qualities further out of reach.

We are talking about two different kinds of airman.
Anyone who gets signed off as P-1......later found to be damaging the hardware due to technique......nevermind.

You have said it all. I thank you. (my opinions are mine. I like yours too.)
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Old 9th Apr 2011, 04:01
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nafod

"There seems to be no other place than a scheduled airline here to learn how to fly."

This is the big problem and not only in India. Europe springs to mind. What they are doing in Europe is to re prioritize, flying skills. I know a management pilot for a flag carrier in Europe. He told me flying skills are well down on the list of their priorities. Scary? Well it is ok until there is an abnormality, automatics play up, for e.g. Maybe I am old fashioned.

Thank God for automatics and I pray they keep working, as we are becoming very reliant on them and so are the pax, to keep them alive.
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Old 13th Apr 2011, 03:06
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Hello McFly!!! Remind you of another country which shall remain unamed?!?

US FAA assigned Barbados a Category 2 safety rating, which means that Barbados does not comply with international safety standards set by ICAO, based on an assessment by Barbados’ civil aviation authority. As a result, Barbados’ air carriers, which do not currently serve the US, cannot establish US service.

An International Aviation Safety Assessment Category 2 rating means a country either lacks laws or regulations necessary to oversee air carriers in accordance with minimum international standards, or that its civil aviation authority is deficient in one or more areas, such as technical expertise, trained personnel, record keeping or inspection procedures, FAA stated.
Someone help me out here... I just don't get it

Last edited by captjns; 13th Apr 2011 at 14:48.
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Old 13th Apr 2011, 07:21
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nafod,

great post.
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Old 23rd Apr 2011, 13:27
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I have heard of an individual who is 22-23 years old in indigo and was awaiting command, something that was really surprising... Either he has got to be BRILLIANT or else its just the output of a flawed policy by the airline...

Full Service Carriers in India have set the limit for a co-pilot to undergo command training not before 25 years of age.
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Old 23rd Apr 2011, 14:16
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Can, setting an age of 25 does not do anything......

The whole system is buggered in India... Just copy the JAR rules and ENFORCE them.. Problem solved!

Oh and the expats will be around for a LONG time.

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