Alcohol Testing of Flight Crew

[Brian Abraham]

I suspect SM will only be satisified that flying is truely safe when there is a (suitably breathalised) non-pilot senior manager riding jumpseat and carrying a cattle prod onboard every commercial flight.

No chance wiggy. He would then be held directly responsible should thing go tits up, with CVR evidence supporting the fact. And remember SMelly wants a camera in the cockpit as well recording every move. Not much teflon to be had there (for management presence on the flight deck). Management always maintains a position of plausible denyability. It was frowned upon in Esso to commit anything contentious to print - computer or hardcopy. Could come back and bite in any discovery process.

[Shell Management]

I see nothing wrong with all professionals, managers included, being held accounatable for their performance. So no one who is competence and compliant should be worried about a little compliance monitoring. The alternative is complacent, anarchic, unsafe, confusion.

[overun]

Well,

what about stop looking for profit from booze around aircraft ?

A sensible stand would be if you`re your not fit to drive you`re not fit to travel.

[brakedwell]

Absolutely! And to follow on, would it be reasonable for Flight Crews to expect the testing officers to have themselves been tested? Can crews require that a testing officer produce a written confirmation of being sober when reporting for duty? If this is not produced, can crews demand that the testing officer undergo an alcohol test there and then to demonstrate fitness to administer alcohol tests? Maybe it's time for some clear legislation on this matter.

And that the testing officer testing the testing officer has undergone testing himself

Thank god for retirement!

[homesick rae]

I recall, when flying with a now defunct charter operator, that I had to report a fellow crew member who was denied boarding to pax back to LGW from NCL. We had flown up a couple of days earlier with a flight the following day to Corfu, arriving back in the wee hours. We all decided to have a couple beers to wind down before getting some kip for our afternoon flight back South...except one of the CC decided to have a few more and went onto the cognacs. I came down in the afternoon and he was still sitting drinking. As soon as he stood up, and wobbled, I warned him he might get refused. He did. As SCCM I spoke with the ground staff who said he could possibly get on the next flight if he sorted himself out. We also had the problem of a report from the ground staff being submitted. After an hour, Special Branch had been called as he had been a bit obnoxious and aggressive. Unfortunately, I was instructed to get his ID and he was suspended with immediate effect. He was actually a Purser too but I was lead due to seniority. It was sad to see but he certainly controlled his own destiny - or should I say, the booze did.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Thank god for retirement!

I wish I still had a job.

I'd get a day off once a week !

[126.9]

Great Idea!

I think it's a great idea. Pilots, politicians, policeman, prostitutes, professionals, passengers, and public servants should all be alcohol and proficiency tested - every six months.

[YorkshireTyke]

.............but he certainly controlled his own destiny - or should I say, the booze did.

Q.E.D. ( Self inflicted injury.)

[Admiral346]

"Rechtsstaat", a german word that translates to "constitutional state" or "rule of the law" according to my dictionary is what this is about.
It is about having to prove your innocence. It is about police walking up to you and accusing you of something, and you as subject to the law having to prove it wrong. It is about randomness of gouvernmental powers, infringing on the rights of an individuum.

The testing might be seen as reasonable, I myself am almost convinced it is. But this is only the beginning of a little tear in a system that will go really bad if allowed to become a large rip. Believe me, we in Germany have been through this.

You cannot allow the authorities to continue this.

If I, like anyone, make a mistake that can be traced back to being intoxicated (and no, it doesn't always end in a crash; the professionals out there will know the relation between incident - accident - catastrophy), I shall be held responsible for negligent behaviour, manslaughter or whatever. And I will have to stand trial and take a punishment. But don't accuse me beforehand.

[ExSp33db1rd]

.

........But don't accuse me beforehand.

and a previous poster .........

I'm not an alcoholic and I'm not a Fanatical Terrorist - get used to it.

Totally agree.

I recently tested positive at a recent road stop, and I hadn't had an alcoholic drink. The (lady) police hofficer suggested that it might be my aftershave that was being sensed ( no, I don't drink the stuff ! ) and admitted that her own make-up occasionally set off their gadget.

Lay off.

[Shell Management]

In other industries the international industry body has a standard for management to apply.
http://www.ogp.org.uk/pubs/445.pdf
Time for IATA to act to restore public confidence?

[linmar]

Maybe this has already been posted earlier in the thread since I didn't read all the pages. But the question was raised in the first three pages why the Swedish police are testing arriving crews and not departing. The law in Sweden was changed 1st of September last year and now is similar to the laws that applies to driving.

The limit for flying is now 0,2 promille of blood or 0,10 milligram of alcohol per liter of your breath. The penalty for this offense is either a fine or imprisonment for a maximum of six months. Since there has been no reports of pilots being over the limit there is still no way to know what a court will sentence.

The next limit is 1,0 promille of alcohol in your blood or 0,50 milligram of alcohol per liter of your breath. In this case it is considered a serious offense and the maximum penalty is 2 years imprisonment.

In order to apply the above laws one obviously has to have broken them. Being over the limit as departing crew wouldn't be considered as breaking the law, since there is no law against intending to fly over the limit. In case you were to show up over the limit at your aircraft the only thing the police can do is to wait and make sure that you don't depart while having more than 0,2 promille in your blood.

Arriving over the limit is obviously another case and with the new law Swedish police are now allowed to randomly test pilots which wasn't the case before when they could only test crew when there was already a suspicion that they were under the influence.

Another thing worth to mention is that Swedish police are equipped with quite sophisticated breathalyzers that are considered reliable enough to be used in a trial. I don't know if they are used by the airport police, but if they are you can't deny the result and demand a blood test which was the case a few years back.

[FlyingCroc]

Now seriously, does this make sense to breathalize crew on arriving? They do this in my company, but after arriving let's say a shorter flight like 4 hours the crew departing must have been stone drunk?

[PA28Viking]

Linmar wrote

In order to apply the above laws one obviously has to have broken them. Being over the limit as departing crew wouldn't be considered as breaking the law, since there is no law against intending to fly over the limit. In case you were to show up over the limit at your aircraft the only thing the police can do is to wait and make sure that you don't depart while having more than 0,2 promille in your blood.

Really? I think in most other countries you are considered to be 'flying' from when you report for work and start planning the flight. Long before you take your seat on the flight deck.

[stuckgear]

In other industries the international industry body has a standard for management to apply.
http://www.ogp.org.uk/pubs/445.pdf
Time for IATA to act to restore public confidence?

SM, your referenced document also includes:

Analgesics (paracetamol, iboprofen)
Anthistamines
Codeine
Cough Medicines
Nicotine

As well as hydrocarbons, petrol/gasoline/solvents etc. it would be interesting to see MRO engineers getting busted for substance abuse due to exposure to such substances.

[Thunderpants]

Avaiton has changed almost beyond recognition over the last couple of decades, and I think this is going to require a whole new 'mindset' from the next generation of flight crew.

Pointless and offensive security screenings, being monitored from the moment you show up for work, drugs and alcohol testing, and the fact that converstions on the flight deck are no longer private, will require us all adopt a very different work attitude.

Those of us whom remember the 'good ole' days, are going to have the hardest time with all this I suspect.

[Shell Management]

That will be the good old days before CRM when we had a hull loss every week?

[ExSp33db1rd]

That will be the good old days before CRM when we had a hull loss every week?

and pilots who flew aeroplanes instead of punching buttons on computers.

Good Ole Days indeed.

[Level100]

Avaiton has changed almost beyond recognition over the last couple of decades, and I think this is going to require a whole new 'mindset' from the next generation of flight crew.

Pointless and offensive security screenings, being monitored from the moment you show up for work, drugs and alcohol testing, and the fact that converstions on the flight deck are no longer private, will require us all adopt a very different work attitude.

and

That will be the good old days before CRM when we had a hull loss every week

Thunder, Shell,
I think you both are right in a way. Of course many things in the "good ole" needed improvement and corrective action. Like ATC getting a necessity when the first liners run into each others in the 50s. The question that rises Thunder for me, at least in between the lines, is the following: does a corrective/protective action become [more] counterproductive from certain moment on?
I would think "yes" in a ever changing world.
Contineous update and adaption ("mitigation" some call it) is the required answer, and yes I would agree with Thunder that certain measures have become pointless and with Shell that CRM was the most fantastic safety breaktrough.

Cheers, Gentlemen

[pegasus-9]

Next time say...no entry.

You will find the Swedish police were just being polite