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Letter To Minister of Civil Aviation From Air India Pilots

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Letter To Minister of Civil Aviation From Air India Pilots

Old 1st Mar 2011, 06:42
  #21 (permalink)  
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Well, let's see: if you know those "facts" on that level either you were the FO on that flight or you're one wannabe (most probably) who had from an uncle or heard from a friend of friend of a friend such gossips.

But, if you know that fact you're truly an accomplice or benefited from that as you're only revealing it here, after 3 years, protected by anonimity. Which reveal a lot about your character...

If in my country I ever suspected that one person, regardless of nationality, is operating an aircraft full of passengers under illegal conditions I would immediately report that to the authorities.It would be my obligation.
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Old 1st Mar 2011, 15:56
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fullforward - with foot in mouth (once again);

Well let's see indeed; unfortunately, you did not heed my advice. I cannot fathom why you insist on exposing your lack of education.

But, if you know that fact you're truly an accomplice or benefited from that as you're only revealing it here, after 3 years
If an individual is aware of impropriety AFTER the fact and did not take part in the impropriety, they are NOT an accomplice. I cannot conceive how anyone aware of the stated violations at a later date could benefit from such events. Other than this thread, you have no knowledge to whom, where and when the facts have been revealed. The matter was reported to both Jet Airways and the Indian DGCA. Therefore, your assertions are wrong, yet again.

I suspect you are enduring that period of physiological change occurring every 28-days and are venting your pains at the wrong individual (often the case at such times). You should be directing your frustrations at Jet Airways incompetent flight 'management', negligent Indian DGCA and an Indian Chairman of an Indian airline, who appoints an inept foreign national to the post of Chief Operating Officer, to endorse and administer a discriminatory policy against Indian pilots (previous post refers).

It is my obligation to inform you that with each post you only further reveal the ignorance of your character. Clearly, you desperately "wannabe" taken seriously. Sadly, as evidenced by your above posts, this will be impossible for you to attain.

Last edited by Tommy Tilt; 6th Mar 2011 at 08:06.
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Old 2nd Mar 2011, 11:09
  #23 (permalink)  
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Spot on Tommy Tilt.
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Old 5th Mar 2011, 20:20
  #24 (permalink)  
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General dismissal of myths.

The Question is not about Any specific Airline in the country instead as This Thread Mainly concentrates on Is about the stagnation that has crept in and is stopping the growth in career as well as experience of the Young Indian Aviator as Well as The RAMPANT Discrimination against Senior Indian Aviators and COMMANDERS of the Same or even Much Higher Experience than the Present day Ex-Pats

The Ex-Pats defend their position saying that there are a lot of low time fliers flying in this country and that they are trying to educate them and bring them upto the level of proficiency required to fly. Without any prejudice, It is However Hard to believe. Mainly Because of the Following Reasons:

1. NO EX-PAT By far has EVER COME ACROSS as ever willing to help train a young Indian Aviator or help him get a job off his own free will or without personal interest. However, one may find many of them working hard to get more of their ex-pat friends into the Indian Aviation sector and further promoting their own interests, thereby STAGNATING the Growth of Indian Aviators despite of the Noticeable Growth in INDIAN Aviation Itself.

All that the Ex-Pats do is keep the accident rate down
Well, Certainly most Ex-Pats who one may come across on a daily basis are basically the one's who retired from their companies back home when the old 58yr retirement rule persisted or the one's who were let off due to reason of age, lack of professional competence as compared to the other pilots in the company (mostly because of weeding during recession), or health even after the 65 yr retirement rule came in.
Most of them are either suffering from one or more problems of old age, Suffer Higher rate of Exhaustion, Endurance is much lesser towards pilot stress.
And Untill Last year (When SO MANY EX-PAT ACCIDENTS and INCIDENTS came to light) Didn't even need an Indian Class 1

3. Another Point On "SAFETY"- RADIO AIDS!
Many foreign pilots (specially those with a strong accent) Either have a hard time Understanding the ATC or they have a Hard Time Making the ATC understand what they want! This in fact has been the MAIN CAUSE for most of the incidents that have taken place in the recent years.

extremely low-time pilots flying these jets
Well that's exactly what the point is about raising the question of stagnation! Low-time pilots cannot become high time pilots till they fly more and get trained faster and better by the airline. WHICH as the Aforementioned letter points out...is not happening And the Main Reason being STAGNATION & Blockage Being Caused because of Ex-Pats.

5. Also, It is to be noted that the letter NO-WHERE mentions or promotes making low-time pilots fly, However It does bring forth the point that there are AMPLY QUALIFIED INDIAN PILOTS (FOs) Ready to be PROMOTED! which in turn of course will open up training arenas for the younger lot. (So the question of Low-time pretty much goes out the window here)

6. Anyway FINALLY ALL SAID & DONE, even if ALL these points are Over looked then there is still one thing, Whatever Happened to The CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT of " EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK! "

Oh wait I forgot the Ex-Pats don't Even Work Equally...so that's another bump in the road there...So Our Ex-Pat friends are Not Only being Paid MORE , in-fact they are being PAID MORE FOR LESS WORK!

It is Sad that Even though we In India have the Capability to Rule Any International field with our Knowledge, In our own country we end up treating our own people as 2nd class citizens.

Anybody who may have Questions or Require Confirmations about the SAFETY maintained by ex-pat pilots in India, may refer the following link:

DGCA toughens rules; clean record must for expat pilots - Economic Times
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Old 6th Mar 2011, 07:21
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I am really not very interessted in the expat problem, but this sentence gave me to think all night:

It is Sad that Even though we In India have the Capability to Rule Any International field with our Knowledge, In our own country we end up treating our own people as 2nd class citizens.
The arogance it holds is just too much, at least the first part.

People are dying of hunger in India, sleeping on the sidewalks, there are huge slums, bigger than I have seen anywhere else in the world.
I have seen the open sewage ditches running through the cities there, and the incredible polution of the air.

Please, start using your "Capability to Rule Any International field" at home first.
Working for cheaper doesn't mean you're working better!

Take a look around the world and think on what might have to improve at home.

Sorry, but your rant just makes me angry.
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Old 6th Mar 2011, 13:55
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Maybe Deep Blue Aviatrix has not been able to express what he/she really wants to say and i hope he/she means is that Indians do well in all fields all over the world and have risen to the upper ranks in different jobs all over. What's happening here in the indian aviation sector is that the locals are not being given an oppurtunity to get employed...gain experience and come up. The airlines have taken the easy way out to overcome their shortfall in captains by employing expats at higher salaries and better T&C's than that are offered to locals.
It is not the expats the locals are against but its a point we have been trying to convince the management that they need to employ locals and think long term.
At the same time expat arguments about how they are here to improve safety is bulls**t as indians before also have flown all over the world and there has been no change in safety standards other than the improvement that comes along with time and thats applicable to all people across the globe in all jobs.

About the condition of the roads and slums and a lot else in major cities too.....its a sad state of affairs thanks to the corrupt politicians who don't care and unfortunately not much can be done about that.
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Old 6th Mar 2011, 20:22
  #27 (permalink)  
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Hook,line and sinker...
Good job done at what you were supposed to do Deep Blue...
Get your grammar straight before you audition as a wannabe thread winder ..
Off now.
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Old 6th Mar 2011, 22:39
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Mangalore. There were two pilots on that aircraft when it crashed. The F/O was a senior F/O ready for command I am informed. What was he doing to help avoid this tragedy apart from voicing his concerns things were not OK and suggesting a missed approach? I do wonder what sort of incapacity training the F/O had, if any. Sure the Captain got it wrong and all the blame has been stacked on him. There is no mention or evidence of the F/O intervening directly to try and avoid what happened. I take it, it was a two crew operation. If I was a F/O and I thought we were going to crash I would do anything to avoid a crash, even if it meant wrestling the controls from the PF. Yes, even if I had to hit the guy over the head with the fire axe to stop him killing me!

I would sooner strap my backside to an aircraft as a passenger, knowing full well there is an experienced Captain up front. He maybe retired or let go by their previous employer, however knacked he may feel after a long day. There is no substute for overall experience. None whatsoever and the more the better. Far sooner that, than an inexperienced captain, who has a good chance of not being selected into the airline on merit as he has connections, maybe cheated somewhere along the line. etc., etc. Even if he or she has passed this space cadet/fighter pilot/astronaut medical examination the DGCA require. Reinventing the wheel will not reduce the accident rate in this case. The expats now have to subject themselves to this folly also. In fact I will suggest that this directive alone will increase the accident/incident rate, as it will turn away the experienced expats. Of course this is the very point of having them sit the DGCA medical every 6 months, in addition to 2 medicals they normally sit for their licence which is validated by the DGCA.

Radio work. I was listening on a tower frequency recently at an airport in India. An aircraft was being read a departure clearance. Before the radio operator of the aircraft receiving the clearance was able to read back the clearance, he was stamped on by an AI radio operator demanding a start up clearance as he was late. Is it surprising the expats sometimes have trouble interpreting radio signals, when they have to contend with this sort of arrogant and amateurish behaviour?

Last edited by doubleu-anker; 6th Mar 2011 at 22:56.
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Old 6th Mar 2011, 23:57
  #29 (permalink)  
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If I had a dollar for every time I've had to say 'say again' in Indian airspace I could quit my job!

'Pushy', 'cloth-eared' and 'inconsiderate' are frequently used adjectives when describing Indian radio traffic exchanges.

And WHEN will Indian Air Traffic Controllers realise that slow and clear enunciation will actually SAVE them work ?
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 01:12
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Well perhaps SWIP will get the wish. Fewer expats and more upgrades. Who wins??? the egos of SWIP or temporary down graded safety of the overall operation? At the end of the day you can't blame SWIP for the desire of more Indian F/Os getting their command. However, IMHO, the expat is wrongfully baring the brunt of the frustation of the unions. They need to look towrads Delhi... at their own DGCA for their current situation.

As far as the First Class Medical is concerned, the Air Force issues initial First Class Medical Certificate. Collusion may be afoot on this issue as 6 out of 6 have been downed in the Bangalore Facility alone. Not aware of what is up in Delhi. Perhaps another issue for another thread.

SWIP needs to direct their angst towards the DGCA for immediate reform within their aviation system and not the expat. The Indian DGCA is the reason as for the slow progression of the Indian Pilot... not the expat!

I've flown in six continents on this planet, and I've never seen such "Organized Chaos" or corruption as I have witnessed within the the Indian aviation system. Shame on the DGCA, shame on the ministers of India and yes... shame on SWIP for allowing this behavior to go on unchecked!

Unless flying with a check airman, F/Os are not allowed to touch the jet until time is served in the right seat after being released to the line... similar to China. After a period of time, the F/O's name is submitted to the DGCA to be added to the assisted takeoffs and landings list. This list if provided by the airline. This can take an additional two to three months for this miracle to occur.

OK SWIP, If you want to see the F/Os progress then SWIP needs to provide oversight to ensure that the assisted takeoff and landing list is updated on a regular basis.

To make complicate matters F/Os are paired up with new expats. They still can't fly the jet until that expat has about 500 hours experience with their Indian Carrier. Provided the expat's name is put on the "Assisted Takeoff and Landing" list issued by.... guess who???? You're right!!! the DGCA!!! Again you need to understand that the Assisted Takeoff and Landing List is list is not issued on a regular basis either. Again, shame on the DGCA!!! and SWIP for their lack of oversight on this matter too!!!

I will say this however, when given the chance, F/O's perform pretty well when given the chance to hand fly the jet. Their levels of motivation are highly increased too.

That being said most F/O's enjoy flying with the expats in India for that reason. Perhaps they can shead the title "Microsoft Pilot" with the more hands on experience they are able to... that their own commanders will not allow them to get.

Another poster used the term "Third World". Well as it pertains to the aviation system in India, that term is an insult to those country's aviation systems are truly Third World.

At the end of the day the purpose of the expat in India is not to displace the Indian pilot... but to provide a service to the airline until the Indian F/O meets the standards of requriements as promulgated by the DGCA's Regulations. So with that being said, SWIP needs to direct their energy and attention towards reform within their own DGCA rather than attempting to have the expat kicked out.

Last edited by captjns; 7th Mar 2011 at 01:27.
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 05:55
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Excellent post captjns

"I will say this however, when given the chance, F/O's perform pretty well when given the chance to hand fly the jet. Their levels of motivation are highly increased too.

That being said most F/O's enjoy flying with the expats in India for that reason. Perhaps they can shead the title "Microsoft Pilot" with the more hands on experience they are able to... that their own commanders will not allow them to get."

Couldnt agree more with you...
It seems like such a simple thing yet for some reason a lot of captains and even instructors find it impossible to understand it. I think any captain who doesnt like to give controls to the F/O is doubtful of his own capability (unless of course he knows the F/O to be incapable in which case, he should have a chat with the guy and he should pass him off to a instructor). Its a simple fact. If all i do in a 3 hour flight is turn a few knobs and make some radio calls, what good will it to do my skill, motivation, confidence and knowledge and indeed my confidence in the captain.

When I was even greener than I am now, I was really fortunate to fly with some excellent captains both locals and expats, and the experience and motivation one got from their simply being in the cockpit made up for all the BS we had to go through outside of the cockpit.

One of the best instructors once told me " Now go on and fly her son, and dun worry too much, there is precious little you can do in this aircraft that I cant recover from. And in time so will you"
Can you imagine the sheer confidence the FO will have about the captain and his capability, the drive it instilled in one to do their best to get a simple "well done" from such a man? Unfortunately men like him are in real short supply today. A real pity.

As far as the expats vs local debate goes. once again the wisdom from yet another gem of an instructor comes through : " I have never claimed to be better than anyone else, so I see no reason to agree to being worse. And I believe no one else should."

With the same training, opportunities and motivation every pilot can rise up to the same level of competence.

keep it simple, keep it smooth.
Happy landings

Last edited by Challenger05; 7th Mar 2011 at 06:14.
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 21:49
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Well to be honest I don't think any of these guys are really against ex-pats coz none of em, neither
the letter nor any of the posts (including that of Deep Blue) ever stated anyhing about any problems at the hands of ex-pats themselves. It's a whole other thing that they indeed seem to be resentful about the apparent discrimination, as it may seem to them, happening Because of the ex-pats. It is but natural for any community to attack the most visible cause of a problem as it may appear to them, when they can't find the actual reason for the trouble which may be rooted much deeper than what they actually see. It's pretty understandable when you compare the frustation building within these guys to the one we often see in the west when it comes to Outsourcing.

What we need to make them realise is that we're here to work with them and not with an idea of replacing them.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 01:20
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OzAviator says...

What we need to make them realise is that we're here to work with them and not with an idea of replacing them.
Spot on! I have always said the purpose of the expat is to fulfill a temporary need until first officers reach a level of proficiency deemed appropriate by their airline and DGCA so that they can upgrade.

That's all there is to it.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 03:25
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Avianco, Air India's losses and woes of Indian Pilots

The DGCA is not protecting the interest of Indian Pilots.
There is a certain Pilot Provisioning company AVIANCO registered in Canada but run by Indians including an Ex M.D. of Indian Airlines and staffed by retired DGCA guys, this company makes big bucks on providing Pilots to Air India and the loot is shared all around. The estimated amount is about 400 crore per annum.
I hope the new Civil Aviation Minister is upright enough not to partake of this loot and eliminate these middlemen. It will be a big step in saving Air India from financial disaster.
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Old 8th Mar 2011, 15:17
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I'm not sure where you got the idea that the DGCA is there to protect the interests of Indian pilots.....

I think you might wish to check what the role of a functioning aviation authority is.

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Old 9th Mar 2011, 05:24
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I have quite a few friends (F/Os) in Air India and AI Express..... What i've gathered from most of them is that they enjoy flying with Expats....
I therefore agree with Captjns and OzAviator.... They dont mean harm to the Expats... just that they are worried about their own finances....
Just for facts... I'm flying for erstwhile Indian Airlines (now Air India)... we get paid by the hour.... and we fly as less as 50 hours a month (as compared to about 75 earlier)... flying allowances are dispensed at the end of the following month (i.e. flying allowances for FEB 2011 would be paid on 31st MAR 2011).... this in turn is regularly delayed by 1 to 3 weeks.... That does not happen to the Expats... this probably is the reason for their "remarks and letter writing"...

As far as the DGCA or the Ministry of Civil Aviation is concerned..... 'chaos and corruption' rule them just like any other Indian Govt undertaking.... SHAME..!
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 20:43
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Who's to be blamed?

But then How are the ex-pats to be blamed for that sir? They hire us, We get Hired. Just like any other professional, the ex-pats are there to earn money out of their skill and find new opportunities for themselves as the market grows as any professional would. We apply to open job ads, we fulfill the requirements and we join. How would we join an Indian company if the company didn't ask us to join in the first place? So I guess you would also agree that in the whole scenario the ex-pats can't be blamed for getting employment in India in the first place. Of-course stagnation, discrimination etc are other issues again which even though they may be related to ex-pats but are not under the control of the ex-pats either.
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