Crash-Cork Airport
Reading what Spanish I can remember, I stand corrected as it was not a low vis accident. It occurred in darkness but with good vis. I too am not suggesting or speculating, only pointing out that the final position of the a/c is very similar to the Cork one.
This photo is clearer than that in the report:
Photos: Fairchild SA-227AC Metro III Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
This photo is clearer than that in the report:
Photos: Fairchild SA-227AC Metro III Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
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Looking at the METARs posted in thread 5, page 1 of this thread, one could be forgiven for concluding that an approach ban was in force.
We know they tried 3 approaches.
So, did the RVR lift 3 times during the time they were trying to land, thus allowing them to continue past '4 miles or 1000' legally,
Or didn't it?
We know they tried 3 approaches.
So, did the RVR lift 3 times during the time they were trying to land, thus allowing them to continue past '4 miles or 1000' legally,
Or didn't it?
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IATA is a commercial organisation which have nothing to do with operations and flight safety even they presenting themselves in this way too. So there are 2-letter IATA designators assigned to non-airlines, and I recall there are some designators assigned to non-aviation companies.
Anyway, I think it is a safe bet that Manx2 does not use the IATA code "NM" of its main partner airline without the knowledge and authorization of that airline. And if you check the IATA database, no IATA code has been issued to Manx2 - although you are correct that they also issue codes to non-airlines (e.g. railway companies).
Btw, as far as ICAO codes are concerned, there is similar confusion. Manx2 is often mentioned in connection with the ICAO Code "BPS", which happens to be the ICAO code of Budapest Air Services, the company that initially operated the Let 410s for Manx2 before Manx2 switchted to Slovak carrier VanAir.
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Btw, as far as ICAO codes are concerned, there is similar confusion. Manx2 is often mentioned in connection with the IATA Code "BPS", which happens to be the IATA code of Budapest Air Services, the company that initially operated the Let 410s for Manx2 before Manx2 switched to Slovak carrier Vanair.
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I'll leave the technical aspects of this accident to the experts, but might comment on the commercial/organisational aspects.
Firstly I am reminded here of the continuing issues with the main USA commuter carriers, who operate with major airline tickets, aircraft livery, flight numbers (as far as the passengers are concerned), etc, where the total image is that of the major airline, but as soon as an accident happens the PR team have all the press releases ready for a "nothing to do with us" distancing from what has now suddenly become a quite separate airline.....
In this case we have :
A Manx airline (is there a separate registration body for the Isle of Man, as they have their own aircraft registration sequence ?), based in a place which is not part of the European Union.
A flight between two EU states, but operating away from the airline home base.
An aircraft belonging to an operator from a third EU state.
An aircraft type which, I believe, has never been on the registers of the UK or Ireland.
Two crew with different native languages.
I wonder whose insurance they were on, which country's law will apply to that insurance, and which AOC authority does the daily oversight of the operation.
Firstly I am reminded here of the continuing issues with the main USA commuter carriers, who operate with major airline tickets, aircraft livery, flight numbers (as far as the passengers are concerned), etc, where the total image is that of the major airline, but as soon as an accident happens the PR team have all the press releases ready for a "nothing to do with us" distancing from what has now suddenly become a quite separate airline.....
In this case we have :
A Manx airline (is there a separate registration body for the Isle of Man, as they have their own aircraft registration sequence ?), based in a place which is not part of the European Union.
A flight between two EU states, but operating away from the airline home base.
An aircraft belonging to an operator from a third EU state.
An aircraft type which, I believe, has never been on the registers of the UK or Ireland.
Two crew with different native languages.
I wonder whose insurance they were on, which country's law will apply to that insurance, and which AOC authority does the daily oversight of the operation.
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Who is responsible?
In among all this, whose SMS will have to be investigated and which authority will have responsibility for that? It is time the public took a close look at what is fast becoming a very unregulated and underpoliced industry where companies can hide behind national borders while operating throughout the EU. The shipping world safety was destroyed by flags of convenience it is time aviation woke up to what is going on.
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Originally Posted by BNBF
Looking at the METARs posted in thread 5, page 1 of this thread, one could be forgiven for concluding that an approach ban was in force.
We know they tried 3 approaches.
So, did the RVR lift 3 times during the time they were trying to land, thus allowing them to continue past '4 miles or 1000' legally,
Or didn't it?
We know they tried 3 approaches.
So, did the RVR lift 3 times during the time they were trying to land, thus allowing them to continue past '4 miles or 1000' legally,
Or didn't it?
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Brother of survivor on Irish radio reporting the right wing hit the ground.
Jan 2007
PLANE DRAMA AS GALES LASH ISLE OF MAN - Isle of Man News - iomtoday
plus
Dec 2007
Airport runway probe - Isle of Man News - iomtoday
July 2008
Burst aircraft tyre was a first, says Manx2 - Isle of Man News - iomtoday
Airport emergency involving Manx2 aircraft - Isle of Man News - iomtoday
Manx2 passenger relives burst tyre landing - Isle of Man News - iomtoday
June 2009
Tyre alert on Manx2 aircraft - Isle of Man News - iomtoday
Manx2 aircraft suffers burst tyre in airport emergency - Isle of Man News - iomtoday
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In this case we have :
A Manx airline (is there a separate registration body for the Isle of Man, as they have their own aircraft registration sequence ?), based in a place which is not part of the European Union.
A flight between two EU states, but operating away from the airline home base.
An aircraft belonging to an operator from a third EU state.
An aircraft type which, I believe, has never been on the registers of the UK or Ireland.
Two crew with different native languages.
I wonder whose insurance they were on, which country's law will apply to that insurance, and which AOC authority does the daily oversight of the operation.
A Manx airline (is there a separate registration body for the Isle of Man, as they have their own aircraft registration sequence ?), based in a place which is not part of the European Union.
A flight between two EU states, but operating away from the airline home base.
An aircraft belonging to an operator from a third EU state.
An aircraft type which, I believe, has never been on the registers of the UK or Ireland.
Two crew with different native languages.
I wonder whose insurance they were on, which country's law will apply to that insurance, and which AOC authority does the daily oversight of the operation.
Regarding the rest we are all in EASA land now so technically we should be singing of the same hymn sheet. All EU a/c are required to have the insurance that the regulatory bodies decide is appropriate. Any EU operator can fly to any other EU country. Suffice to say Flightline BCN were authorised under Spanish CAA and the rest came under the IAA and CAA.
WHBM wrote:
That's not correct. At least these three have at some time:
EI-BRI
G-BUKA
G-CEGE
An aircraft type which, I believe, has never been on the registers of the UK or Ireland.
EI-BRI
G-BUKA
G-CEGE
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Woah! From a bystanders viewpoint.....
"Note the similarities."
Thin Ice indeed BRUpax, Thin Ice
Although we may be well aware of that nicety here, I wonder how many, if any, of the unfortunate pax perceived it that way.
As American writer James Whitcomb Riley said :
"When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck."
As American writer James Whitcomb Riley said :
"When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck."
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Mmmm
So folks, let me see if i've got this right. This was a UK airline (without an AOC) using a GERMAN carriers AOC, who were using SPANISH registered a/c and crew flying routes in IRELAND. Great combo...
I'm a bit
and 
RIP to those who paid the unlimate price for companies who insist on circumnavigating legislation!
I'm a bit
and RIP to those who paid the unlimate price for companies who insist on circumnavigating legislation!
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Fellas this old chestnut of is it an airline or not was done to death when the first euromanx set itself up. Issued nothing but tickets and brought in the aircraft from all over europe.
Common factor - its the Isle of Man. Nothing wrong with that but the deadwood we have running the show here have continually refused to take any responsiblity about the air services here cos they have loved their 'open skies' policy.
They're too thick to recognise the shambles air services have been top and fro the rock for the past 10 years. Ive lost count of the airlines that have come, been beaten off by bigger fish on routes, bigger fish FO when they don't make money and so it goes on.
The manx register wont have commercial aircraft on it.
I knew a few pilots who lost their jobs with euromanx (second version) and went to Manx2. One left after a week cos he was an ex BACon fella and couldn't stand what was going on there. Anothe rgot the boot after he raised questions about the tech state of the aircraft.
Like most things in life, you get what you pay for and Manx2 woulodn't have been paying much, yessir.
Common factor - its the Isle of Man. Nothing wrong with that but the deadwood we have running the show here have continually refused to take any responsiblity about the air services here cos they have loved their 'open skies' policy.
They're too thick to recognise the shambles air services have been top and fro the rock for the past 10 years. Ive lost count of the airlines that have come, been beaten off by bigger fish on routes, bigger fish FO when they don't make money and so it goes on.
The manx register wont have commercial aircraft on it.
I knew a few pilots who lost their jobs with euromanx (second version) and went to Manx2. One left after a week cos he was an ex BACon fella and couldn't stand what was going on there. Anothe rgot the boot after he raised questions about the tech state of the aircraft.
Like most things in life, you get what you pay for and Manx2 woulodn't have been paying much, yessir.
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Originally Posted by BBF
BOAC
I'm sure they'd need at least 550m for a CAT 1 and I don't see that on the wx info (on page 1) until quite late on.
But maybe (presumably even) it DID go above minimums. That's what I'd like to know.
Did it or didn't it?
I'm sure they'd need at least 550m for a CAT 1 and I don't see that on the wx info (on page 1) until quite late on.
But maybe (presumably even) it DID go above minimums. That's what I'd like to know.
Did it or didn't it?
While you are doing your homework, also find out the minimum RVR for R35.
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Moggiee,
Please accept my apologies, you are of course correct, the height limitations on the approaches are of course DH.
But from my perspective on the ground, there wouldn't be much point in you commencing an approach if the cloud base was below the DH minimum for the category of approach that you are flying - thereby precluding the probability of achieving the visual cues required to complete a landing.
Please accept my apologies, you are of course correct, the height limitations on the approaches are of course DH.
But from my perspective on the ground, there wouldn't be much point in you commencing an approach if the cloud base was below the DH minimum for the category of approach that you are flying - thereby precluding the probability of achieving the visual cues required to complete a landing.
If I didn't at least try once when it was legal then I would expect my employer to be (rightly) upset. Likewise, they can have no complaints if I refuse to fly one when it is below minima.
As for getting the required visual references, you don't actually have to be able to see the runway (of course) just things such as runway lights, threshold lighting, elements of the approach lighting and so you have a reasonable chance of seeing enough references if you have the required RVR. Remember, at Cat I DH you are only looking down through about 80-100m of cloud (allowing for slant ranges) whereas the minimum horizontal RVR is 550m - that actually gives quite a good chance of seeing some approach lights.
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RabC, I have to say that some of your comments reflect my worst fears. Before I worked for the non-virtual outfit my former employment sent me to operators all over the place.
I have certainly known of some commercial pressure accidents which were entirely avoidable.
I think we all need to wait until some factual evidence is forthcoming before jumping to conclusions, but I have a gut feeling......
By the way, I'll bet you haven't seen this name on the forum for a while!
I have certainly known of some commercial pressure accidents which were entirely avoidable.
I think we all need to wait until some factual evidence is forthcoming before jumping to conclusions, but I have a gut feeling......
By the way, I'll bet you haven't seen this name on the forum for a while!
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Flight crew named as Captain Jordi Gola Lopez (Spanish) and First Officer Andrew Cantle (British).
The comments I've read on the thread have been hugely embarrassing and completely disrespectful to those who lost their lives yesterday and I hope that most of you are not actually involved at the sharp end of the airline industry.
The comments I've read on the thread have been hugely embarrassing and completely disrespectful to those who lost their lives yesterday and I hope that most of you are not actually involved at the sharp end of the airline industry.
