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Crash-Cork Airport

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Crash-Cork Airport

Old 6th May 2011, 10:52
  #941 (permalink)  
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From 9 June 2010 (ie well before the accident):

EASYJET has responded to criticism from Manx2.com, saying that safety takes priority when it comes to making decisions about flight cancellations.

Spokesman Andrew McConnell said, "We apologise for the disruption that the cancellation caused. This was due to fog at Ronaldsway Airport, meaning that it was not safe to land the aircraft."

The statement comes after Manx2.com claimed scores of passengers had their TT holiday plans “ruined” by easyjet’s third cancellation in two weeks at the weekend, caused by fog. Manx2.com laid on two extra flights to cope with the problem and said the situation demonstrated the different operating philosophies of a locally based operator and a big operator from the UK.

Chairman Noel Hayes said it was the ability of a locally-based company to react quickly which saved the day for more than 100 passengers, many of which otherwise faced missing onward flights to Europe later that day.

He added, “The different operating philosophies of a locally based operator and a big operator from across were clearly demonstrated again on Saturday. easyJet's new service, with more than 100 passengers on-board, was unable to land so returned to Liverpool where the flight was abruptly cancelled."
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Old 6th May 2011, 11:01
  #942 (permalink)  
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Premonition ? Arrogance ? A realistic public statement of what they "really" expected from their pilots?

Reading it now with the benefit of hindsight does tend to invoke a feeling of

One of the golden rules of airline advertising is never to cast aspertions on anything safety related on the record of the other guys, as you don't know if/when your time will come.

Unless you have a Cat3 operation & the other guy doesn't (as was the case years ago when BA used to promote this capability with the Shuttle which BM couldn't match with the "Diesel9") claiming you can get in when the other guy can't is tantamount to saying "Yeah mate, we are like , just a bunch of effin cowboys" IMHO
And so indeed it came to be realised.
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Old 6th May 2011, 12:20
  #943 (permalink)  
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I do not think that easyJet are any different from any other credible airline in Europe - we do not bust minimums. If we cancel flights because the weather is below legal limits, then that is the way it is. Manx2 have been weighed in the balance and found desperately wanting - perhaps a cancelled flight is a small price to pay for getting there alive a day or two later. I would list Manx2 as the exception here - they were just a 2-bit rock-bottom turboprop operator with slack standards and pressure from above to 'get the job done'. I have worked for such outfits myself, and am profoundly grateful to never have that sort of pressure from my own employer now. I am not holding easyJet up as higher than anyone else - we are just the same as the vast majority of serious airlines that exist around the UK today. Until you have experienced what passes for normality in some of these smaller airlines, you cannot really imagine what pressures their pilots work under. If ever there was a case for corporate manslaughter investigations this was it.
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Old 6th May 2011, 14:03
  #944 (permalink)  
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Local operator flexibilty

Without in any way taking sides in the Manx2 versus EasyJet et al performance comments. Is there not case that a locally based operator - without the schedule demands that a larger company may have - might well be better placed to take advantage of changes in the weather – and still operate within the appropriate weather limits? A delay to an EasyJet programme, for example, may have considerable knock-on effects whereas the local operator may have more flexibility and more capable of responding quickly when situations change.
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Old 6th May 2011, 14:14
  #945 (permalink)  
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Yes. . . . but I doubt if that was where they sought, or found, their "local advantage" If we look at the result, and reading further back here, take account of comments from those familiar with the company's "history" of incidents , and arriving at the same time as others are diverting, we are more likely to find their "advantage".
That is in no way thanks to flexibility or exceptional piloting skills, it is merely due to ignoring the MINIMUM part of minimum descent altitude, & commencing an approach with no respect either for the word MINIMUMS as it is applied to RVR.
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Old 6th May 2011, 14:39
  #946 (permalink)  
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SAINT ALLED - yes, its easy in the UK. Pick a brand you know and the chances are you will be as safe as its ever likely to be in the air.

If you picked the well known brand then turn up at the airport and find the A/c has a different paint job from that expected, then you have a reasonable expectation that your 'well known brand' has subbed out to a reasonably reliable and safe outfit. Its their brand reputation at stake as well as your life.

If you have to fly on a non-uk operated flight, there are still plenty of well known brands in Europe and N.America you can reasonably rely on.

Once you outside Europe - N. America, pick the FLAG CARRIER for that country. Best option, but not 100%. Remember Lo Cost outside Europe is not the same as EasyJet.

If you are in the back of beyond in a small turboprop, LOOK at it before you board even in the 3rd. world a well maintained, clean aircraft speaks volumes, chances are you will see the pilots, do they look professional? If you arn't happy, DON'T GO. Take some responsibility for your own life. Even though we treat aircraft like buses these days, they are not.

These are, of course HUGE generalisations, but I've used them up to the point of not flying on one occasion. I'm also very picky at what airline I send my family on. I'd rather not save £100 and fly with Air SomewhreWeird!

All this leads to Manx2, which would seem to escape the above rules, up to the point whrere it would say Fairchild Metro, at which point I would have got myself an Avis hire car and driven to Cork.

NSF +1
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Old 6th May 2011, 15:49
  #947 (permalink)  
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NSF - Manx2 isn't even an operator, let alone a two bit one. Despite the moniker "Airline," they are in their own words "just ticket sellers." And a "ticket seller" which doesn't operate aircraft probably doesn't understand that the take-off minima are different to landing minima which is maybe how they unsurprisingly managed to depart when EasyJet, quite reasonably, diverted.

Moving on and accepting the fact that Manx2.com are just "ticket sellers," it would be reasonable for them to disclose the penalties they impose on their carriers following non-performance due weather and technical related issues. Like who pays for diversions? Like who pays for associated AOG costs? How do Manx2 ensure, not being an airline, that their "operators" are are worthy organisations and are compliant with all relevant regulations and so on, like they did with Flightline?

There was a time when flying a European registered aircraft meant that you were reasonably safe. Now the likes of Manx2 have moved into the market, we now have to be a little more choosy about who we even buy our tickets from.
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Old 6th May 2011, 16:21
  #948 (permalink)  
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Since when does a ticketing agent that apparently has no role to play in a fatal accident take an interest in 'operating philosophies'? Surely they just engage the services of an AOC company and leave it at that?
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Old 6th May 2011, 17:24
  #949 (permalink)  
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Reply to Daerman ATC

I tried on the net to find the source of the BBC radio documentary claim, similar to the one in your Spanish link, that AEAS/EASA were concerned about the safety record of FlightlineBCN but I drew a blank.

I decided to approach AESA direct by email but they replied to the effect that "SAFA data" is confidential and not theirs to release but is the property of the country organisation which generates it.

They did however inform me that in recent years FlightlineBCN has been inspected within the EU as follows:

2009 Belgium
2010 France X2 and Germany
2011 France and Ireland.
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Old 6th May 2011, 18:38
  #950 (permalink)  
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Alphabet soup correction above.

My first reference above should be to AESA/EASA...and my second reference to EASA whom I approached by email and who gave the the EU-wide statistics which I quoted.

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Old 6th May 2011, 22:44
  #951 (permalink)  
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Flightline and Eurocontinental info

You need to search under Google.es. Here are some links:

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Operator index > Spain > Euro Continental Air
This summarises the suspension of Eurocontinental's AOC in December 1999 on 'Safety grounds" pending a hearing. Their AOC was revoked. Their aircraft then appeared under Flightine BCN. Eurocontinental's office was in Valencia but they also had a shipping and forwarding office in Barcelona - where Flightline BCN are based. I am unable to find company director information but it would be interesting to see whether The directors of Eurocontintal and flightline BCN are one and the same . . .

This link takes you to a Spanish site and give more detail regarding Eurocontinental's suspension and subsequent removal of their AOC:
Economía/Transportes.- Euro Continental Air, suspendida como organización de gestión de la aeronavegabilidad - 2007095 - elEconomista.es

This link will give Flightline company information as at 2011 where it states that they have three aircraft for cargo only (!) and six full time pilots.

This link dated March 2011 (!) states that Flightline has been put on the EU blacklist for reasons of security:
UE pide a pequeñas aerolíneas de Alemania y España mejorar seguridad | telediario.mx

And finally here is the fullest details I've yet seen of investigations into Flightline prior to the Cork accident from www.flightglobal.com

Spanish authorities have disclosed that they took preliminary action last month to suspend the air operator's certificate of Flightline, the carrier linked to February's fatal Manx2 Fairchild Metro III crash at Cork.
Documentation detailing the breakdown of the newly-revised European Union blacklist states that the European Commission discussed Flightline's situation with Spanish air security agency AESA on 14 March.
The documentation says that AESA "initiated the process" to suspend Flightline's AOC and also stopped it from operating Metro IIIs as part of "precautionary measures to address the immediate safety concern".
Flightline had entered an arrangement to operate two Metro IIIs which, the documentation says, had previously been operating under the AOC of another Spanish carrier, Eurocontinental.
But following ramp inspections and "significant safety incidents" with the operation of the aircraft, AESA had suspended the Eurocontinental AOC.
Flightline's arrangement to operate the Metro IIIs was made with a company identified as Air Lada - not a certified carrier but a company which would provide pilots for the two aircraft.
The documentation says that Flightline carried out conversion training of the pilots, as well as quality checks on the Isle of Man regarding the aircraft operation.
Flightline could not immediately be reached for comment on the discussions.
But the documentation says AESA confirmed to the Commission's air safety committee that Flightline had drawn up a corrective plan and taken action to address the issue.
At a subsequent meeting with committee on 5 April, it adds, Flightline said it had revised pilot selection, training and control procedures - particularly for services operating away from the carrier's main base - and amended its operations manual to include guidance on use of alternate airports.
Irish investigators are still working to determine the reasons behind the 10 February crash at Cork, where a Flightline service on behalf of Manx2 was attempting to land in poor weather conditions.
The documentation states: "In light of the actions undertaken by the competent authorities of Spain in resolving the identified safety deficiencies of Flightline...it is assessed that, at this time, no further action is necessary.
"However, the Commission underlined that if such actions are ineffective in improving the performance of air carriers certified in Spain, action would be necessary to ensure that identified safety risks have been adequately controlled."

So why was Manx2 still using Flightline . . .?
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Old 7th May 2011, 11:20
  #952 (permalink)  
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at the risk of thread hijacking, have a look at this article, then look at the 'related articles' box on the left hand side. Chilling isn't it? This is the reason that the likes of this spanish aoc operator should be driven out of business.

Update2: Bodies Recovered After Indonesia Plane Crash | The Jakarta Globe
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Old 7th May 2011, 15:52
  #953 (permalink)  
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Local Spanish reporting of Flightline(BCN)

Many thanks for the local info.

You mention one other company name and suspect they may be linked. I´ll see if I can use my fairly rudimentary skills to check some of the names.

Earlier I had to apologise for my careless use of some of the EU/Spanish acronyms, but the alphabet soup doesn´t end there.

Other companies which are "somewhere in the picture" but "hard to make out clearly" include Air Lada, LAA (= Líneas Aéreas Andalus ?) Fly Sur, TAER Andalus and Andalus Líneas Aéreas; the same as LAA ? Or not?

It is interesting that the last Spanish language link which you provided is in fact to a Mexican newspaper. There does not seem to be much appetite in the Spanish press to cover this story. Nor indeed in the UK, despite the status of "The Six Counties" in international law.
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Old 7th May 2011, 17:44
  #954 (permalink)  
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Thanks a lot for your efforts, Big Frank adn Sunnyjohn
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Old 7th May 2011, 19:29
  #955 (permalink)  
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Euro Continental and Flightline

Thanks for your link to Air Lada, Big Frank. And what do we find?
According to Ascend Worldwiide, information updated weekly, Air Lada have a fleet of one Fairchild Metro III - owned by none other than Euro Continental Air. From the same source, Euro Continental Air own one Metro III - leased to Air Lada, and one Metro II - leased to Flightline. And Euro Centinental Air? Formed in 2005 and based in Valencia, where, you may recall, they were previously based before their AOC was suspended. Can you smell what I can smell . . .?
Here are the links:
Profile on Euro Continental Air | Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - CAPA
Profile on Air Lada | Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - CAPA
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Old 10th May 2011, 14:34
  #956 (permalink)  
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Links (if any) between Euro Continental and Flightline

I used a website

which is a standard search engine for low-level commercial investigation in Spain.

It indicates that Euro C was founded near Barcelona (Castelldefels on the coast just south of BCN) but moved to Valencia around 2005.

The names of directors etc does not appear to show any strong correlation with the same list for Flightline.(One second surname in the Spanish double-surname convention appears amongst directors but hardly seems important.)

Indeed Euro C seems to be controlled by someone from the estate agency/ construction industry currently. Which might tell us something.
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Old 10th May 2011, 15:35
  #957 (permalink)  
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I cannot believe the statement from Manx2 towards easyjet

well i tell you what ill never book a ticket with Manx 2 ever because they use airlines that bust minimums..

be safe fly with a real airline..
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Old 10th May 2011, 16:16
  #958 (permalink)  
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You have concrete proof that VanAir Europe, Links Air and FLM Aviation bust minimums do you?
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Old 10th May 2011, 16:21
  #959 (permalink)  
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No but there's concrete proof that flightline BCN bust minimumns
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Old 10th May 2011, 16:24
  #960 (permalink)  
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5 June 2010:

History : Weather Underground

Easyjet says safety rules its cancellation policy*|* Newsroom*|*isleofman.com

Its worth mentioning this factual post once more:


Whilst I am thinking historicially. Remember this:

Manx2 aircraft suffers burst tyre in airport emergency - Isle of Man News - iomtoday

Tyre alert on Manx2 aircraft - Isle of Man News - iomtoday

Manx2 Emergency At The Airport - Manx Forums, Live Chat, Blogs & Classifieds for the Isle of Man - Manxforums.com

Last edited by lfc84; 10th May 2011 at 17:57.
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