Crash-Cork Airport
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Preliminary Report from the AAIU out soon
The Preliminary Report should be out on March 14th. EU law has been tweaked in relation to Accident Investigations, and the families now get more communication as part of the process.
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No answers yet in plane crash probe
Monday March 07 2011
AVIATION experts have so far been unable to find any fault to explain why a 19-year-old airplane crashed at Cork Airport last month, killing six people and leaving six more injured, writes Ralph Riegel.
The preliminary report by the Air Accident Investigation Unit into the February 10 disaster will be finalised within the next two weeks.
However, a senior aviation industry source told the Irish Independent that it was understood no problem with the aeroplane had yet been uncovered to explain the tragedy.
Two key elements in the probe will focus on the pilot's decision to attempt a third landing and the prevailing weather conditions.
The airline, Manx2.com, has now axed its Cork-Belfast service. The company said the decision came following a route review
No answers yet in plane crash probe - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie
Monday March 07 2011
AVIATION experts have so far been unable to find any fault to explain why a 19-year-old airplane crashed at Cork Airport last month, killing six people and leaving six more injured, writes Ralph Riegel.
The preliminary report by the Air Accident Investigation Unit into the February 10 disaster will be finalised within the next two weeks.
However, a senior aviation industry source told the Irish Independent that it was understood no problem with the aeroplane had yet been uncovered to explain the tragedy.
Two key elements in the probe will focus on the pilot's decision to attempt a third landing and the prevailing weather conditions.
The airline, Manx2.com, has now axed its Cork-Belfast service. The company said the decision came following a route review
No answers yet in plane crash probe - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie
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Roots
It seems to me that whatever the technical issues that affected this accident, there is something deeply wrong about the very idea of a virtual airline, with contracted in operators serving the schedule.
I have worked at the bottom of the heap in shoestring turboprop operators (thankfully a long while ago now) and that was cowboyish enough, and they were overseen by the CAA and were "respected regional operators" - though not by their employees it must be said.
I will want some convincing that the roots of this were not in the very model of the airline itself, with operators working on thin margins and even thinner training programs. You just don't want to be on aeroplanes like this, either as pax or crew.
I have worked at the bottom of the heap in shoestring turboprop operators (thankfully a long while ago now) and that was cowboyish enough, and they were overseen by the CAA and were "respected regional operators" - though not by their employees it must be said.
I will want some convincing that the roots of this were not in the very model of the airline itself, with operators working on thin margins and even thinner training programs. You just don't want to be on aeroplanes like this, either as pax or crew.
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It seems to me that whatever the technical issues that affected this accident, there is something deeply wrong about the very idea of a virtual airline, with contracted in operators serving the schedule.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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mad jock
its funny...you said that there are quite a few sims in the US for this plane that don't pass european muster
yet there are NO sims whatsoever in europe.
do you see the craziness of this?
its funny...you said that there are quite a few sims in the US for this plane that don't pass european muster
yet there are NO sims whatsoever in europe.
do you see the craziness of this?
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The Real cause
An accident of this nature has been inbound for quite a while. Personally, I believe Airlines have been allowed to carry on royally in a self regulating free for all. The Aviation Authorities must look at themselves seriously. Who is Policing the industry ?. Who is protecting the public ? Who is protecting the Pilots from operators ? Its gone too far. Get your truncheons Flight Ops Inspectors and tap a few heads.
How many prosecutions in Ireland and the Uk in the last 10 years against Private Pilots?
Now compare that to the how many airlines have been prosecuted for ANO breaches.
It may be an enlightning revelation !!!!!!!
How many prosecutions in Ireland and the Uk in the last 10 years against Private Pilots?
Now compare that to the how many airlines have been prosecuted for ANO breaches.
It may be an enlightning revelation !!!!!!!
Last edited by OldChinaHand; 10th Mar 2011 at 19:34.
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To Old China Hand - a very valid point.
The disturbing curiosity in this case is that a supposedly bona fide airline can operate thus. Problem is that the IOM government have a CAA but only to govern Manx registered aircraft. There are no permanent staff governing airworthiness, operational standards, etc.
This allows the operation to slip through the net quite easily since nobody wants to see services to convenient locations off the Island disappear.
When I fly from an island in the Irish sea, I prefer to see G- or EI- on the tail. Not OK- or EC- or whatever.
OK they all fall under EASA ruling, but I, as an individual, do not know how rigorously legislation is applied in these countries.
The disturbing curiosity in this case is that a supposedly bona fide airline can operate thus. Problem is that the IOM government have a CAA but only to govern Manx registered aircraft. There are no permanent staff governing airworthiness, operational standards, etc.
This allows the operation to slip through the net quite easily since nobody wants to see services to convenient locations off the Island disappear.
When I fly from an island in the Irish sea, I prefer to see G- or EI- on the tail. Not OK- or EC- or whatever.
OK they all fall under EASA ruling, but I, as an individual, do not know how rigorously legislation is applied in these countries.
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yes and no seven.
You can't just allow any sim to be used that claims to be a certain type. Because, been there done that, with a king air flight model in back ground and instruments just stuck on the front. It just turns it into a sim game and doesn't give much training for the real thing. And JAR sims require TCAS and EGPWS instruments to be simulated and its just not worth upgrading these auld heaps sims to comply with it.
But someone has to pay for it to be approved.
But to be honest even if they were blanket approved on the back of an FAA approval the operators wouldn't send folk to them because of the cost of sending pilots to them and the amount of time they would be off line for.
You can't just allow any sim to be used that claims to be a certain type. Because, been there done that, with a king air flight model in back ground and instruments just stuck on the front. It just turns it into a sim game and doesn't give much training for the real thing. And JAR sims require TCAS and EGPWS instruments to be simulated and its just not worth upgrading these auld heaps sims to comply with it.
But someone has to pay for it to be approved.
But to be honest even if they were blanket approved on the back of an FAA approval the operators wouldn't send folk to them because of the cost of sending pilots to them and the amount of time they would be off line for.
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mad jock
all I know is I went to the sim for the metroliner before I upgraded to captain on it. it was helpful as is all training. TCAS didn't exist on the line then. There was no requirement for any kind of GPWS in this class of aircraft at the time.
But I never rolled one inverted doing an ILS.
all I know is I went to the sim for the metroliner before I upgraded to captain on it. it was helpful as is all training. TCAS didn't exist on the line then. There was no requirement for any kind of GPWS in this class of aircraft at the time.
But I never rolled one inverted doing an ILS.
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I know and agree with you. I started when we didn't have all the bells and whistles in them. I can remember the great CB push day on the TCAS. I wonder how many "
there is a load of traffic out there" was said on that day.
Still the main issue is that even if they could use the FAA sims they still wouldn't because it costs more than doing the training in the aircraft.
My aircraft costs about £2K a pilot in the aircraft to do a LPC including approach fees. And the pilot and TRE can be online the day before and after.
If we were to go to the sim it would be
600 quid an hour * 4 £2400
plus £1200 air fares.
HOTAC £500. = Just over 2K per pilot.
And 3 pilots are offline for 3 days. And thats with a sim available in Europe. Going to the USA the air fares will double and so will the HOTAC.
And you know what they are like for running with min crew levels and firefighting rostering.
Persoanally I don't think things will change until they are forced to. I would like to see the LPC done in the sim and OPC could be done in the aircraft. All command courses and intial ratings to be done in the Sim. .
there is a load of traffic out there" was said on that day. Still the main issue is that even if they could use the FAA sims they still wouldn't because it costs more than doing the training in the aircraft.
My aircraft costs about £2K a pilot in the aircraft to do a LPC including approach fees. And the pilot and TRE can be online the day before and after.
If we were to go to the sim it would be
600 quid an hour * 4 £2400
plus £1200 air fares.
HOTAC £500. = Just over 2K per pilot.
And 3 pilots are offline for 3 days. And thats with a sim available in Europe. Going to the USA the air fares will double and so will the HOTAC.
And you know what they are like for running with min crew levels and firefighting rostering.
Persoanally I don't think things will change until they are forced to. I would like to see the LPC done in the sim and OPC could be done in the aircraft. All command courses and intial ratings to be done in the Sim. .
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there is something untrainable using a mere ''hood'' view limiting device for an ils.
you simply have to train for rolling fog, and visibility loss after DH
but mad jock, I do understand...airlines are cheap...I wonder if people would pay more for a ticket with an airline that spent twice as much money on pilot training?
fly safe buddy
you simply have to train for rolling fog, and visibility loss after DH
but mad jock, I do understand...airlines are cheap...I wonder if people would pay more for a ticket with an airline that spent twice as much money on pilot training?
fly safe buddy
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The Real cause
An accident of this nature has been inbound for quite a while. Personally, I believe Airlines have been allowed to carry on royally in a self regulating free for all. The Aviation Authorities must look at themselves seriously. Who is Policing the industry ?. Who is protecting the public ? Who is protecting the Pilots from operators ? Its gone too far. Get your truncheons Flight Ops Inspectors and tap a few heads.
An accident of this nature has been inbound for quite a while. Personally, I believe Airlines have been allowed to carry on royally in a self regulating free for all. The Aviation Authorities must look at themselves seriously. Who is Policing the industry ?. Who is protecting the public ? Who is protecting the Pilots from operators ? Its gone too far. Get your truncheons Flight Ops Inspectors and tap a few heads.
Aircraft Accident Rate is Lowest in History - Still Room for Improvement, Regional Concerns Remain
Tokyo – The International Air Transport Association (IATA) announced the aviation safety performance for 2010 showing that the year’s accident rate for Western-built jet aircraft as the lowest in aviation history.
The 2010 global accident rate (measured in hull losses per million flights of Western-built jet aircraft) was 0.61. That is equal to one accident for every 1.6 million flights. This is a significant improvement of the 0.71 rate recorded in 2009 (one accident for 1.4 million flights). The 2010 rate was the lowest in aviation history, just below the 2006 rate of 0.65. Compared to 10 years ago, the accident rate has been cut 42% from the rate recorded in 2001. A hull loss is an accident in which the aircraft is destroyed or substantially damaged and is not subsequently repaired.
“Safety is the number one priority. Achieving the lowest accident rate in the history of aviation shows that this commitment is bearing results. Flying is safe. But every fatality is a human tragedy that reminds us of the ultimate goal of zero accidents and zero fatalities. We must remain focused and determined to move closer to this goal year by year,” said Giovanni Bisignani, IATA’s Director General and CEO.
In absolute numbers, 2010 saw the following results:
* 2.4 billion people flew safely on 36.8 million flights (28.4 million jet, 8.4 million turboprop)
* 17 hull loss accidents involving western-built jet aircraft compared to 19 in 2009
* 94 accidents (all aircraft types, Eastern and Western built) compared to 90 in 2009
* 23 fatal accidents (all aircraft types) compared to 18 in 2009
* 786 fatalities compared to 685 in 2009
IATA member airlines outperformed the industry average with a Western-built jet hull loss rate of 0.25. That rate is equal to one accident for every 4 million flights. The IATA Operational Safety Audit (IOSA) became a condition of IATA membership from 1 April 2009. All 234 IATA member airlines are now on the IOSA registry. The IOSA registry is open to all airlines and it currently consists of over 350 airlines.
“The numbers tell the story. In the first full year after the IOSA became a condition of IATA membership, the accident rate for IATA carriers has never been so low. The data confirms that IOSA is helping to drive safety improvements around the world. It is an important part of a comprehensive safety strategy involving governments and industry working together to further reduce the number of accidents and fatalities,” said Bisignani.
There are significant regional differences in the Western built jet hull loss accident rate:
* North America (0.10), Europe (0.45), North Asia (0.34) and the Commonwealth of Independent States (0.0) performed better than the global average of 0.61
* Asia-Pacific was higher than the global average at 0.80 in 2010 and about the same from the previous year (0.86)
* The Middle East and North Africa region saw its accident rate fall significantly to 0.72 (compared to 3.32 in 2009) with only one accident involving a carrier from the region
* Latin America & the Caribbean reported a higher accident rate of 1.87 with four airlines from the region involved in accidents, compared with a zero accident rate in 2009
* Africa had an accident rate of 7.41, which was lower than the 2009 rate of 9.94. While showing improvement, Africa once again has the worst rate in the world. There were four Western-built jet hull losses with African carriers in 2010. African carriers are 2% of global traffic, but 23% of global western-built jet hull losses.
Tokyo – The International Air Transport Association (IATA) announced the aviation safety performance for 2010 showing that the year’s accident rate for Western-built jet aircraft as the lowest in aviation history.
The 2010 global accident rate (measured in hull losses per million flights of Western-built jet aircraft) was 0.61. That is equal to one accident for every 1.6 million flights. This is a significant improvement of the 0.71 rate recorded in 2009 (one accident for 1.4 million flights). The 2010 rate was the lowest in aviation history, just below the 2006 rate of 0.65. Compared to 10 years ago, the accident rate has been cut 42% from the rate recorded in 2001. A hull loss is an accident in which the aircraft is destroyed or substantially damaged and is not subsequently repaired.
“Safety is the number one priority. Achieving the lowest accident rate in the history of aviation shows that this commitment is bearing results. Flying is safe. But every fatality is a human tragedy that reminds us of the ultimate goal of zero accidents and zero fatalities. We must remain focused and determined to move closer to this goal year by year,” said Giovanni Bisignani, IATA’s Director General and CEO.
In absolute numbers, 2010 saw the following results:
* 2.4 billion people flew safely on 36.8 million flights (28.4 million jet, 8.4 million turboprop)
* 17 hull loss accidents involving western-built jet aircraft compared to 19 in 2009
* 94 accidents (all aircraft types, Eastern and Western built) compared to 90 in 2009
* 23 fatal accidents (all aircraft types) compared to 18 in 2009
* 786 fatalities compared to 685 in 2009
IATA member airlines outperformed the industry average with a Western-built jet hull loss rate of 0.25. That rate is equal to one accident for every 4 million flights. The IATA Operational Safety Audit (IOSA) became a condition of IATA membership from 1 April 2009. All 234 IATA member airlines are now on the IOSA registry. The IOSA registry is open to all airlines and it currently consists of over 350 airlines.
“The numbers tell the story. In the first full year after the IOSA became a condition of IATA membership, the accident rate for IATA carriers has never been so low. The data confirms that IOSA is helping to drive safety improvements around the world. It is an important part of a comprehensive safety strategy involving governments and industry working together to further reduce the number of accidents and fatalities,” said Bisignani.
There are significant regional differences in the Western built jet hull loss accident rate:
* North America (0.10), Europe (0.45), North Asia (0.34) and the Commonwealth of Independent States (0.0) performed better than the global average of 0.61
* Asia-Pacific was higher than the global average at 0.80 in 2010 and about the same from the previous year (0.86)
* The Middle East and North Africa region saw its accident rate fall significantly to 0.72 (compared to 3.32 in 2009) with only one accident involving a carrier from the region
* Latin America & the Caribbean reported a higher accident rate of 1.87 with four airlines from the region involved in accidents, compared with a zero accident rate in 2009
* Africa had an accident rate of 7.41, which was lower than the 2009 rate of 9.94. While showing improvement, Africa once again has the worst rate in the world. There were four Western-built jet hull losses with African carriers in 2010. African carriers are 2% of global traffic, but 23% of global western-built jet hull losses.
............
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From a Manx radio station today:
It's claimed that legal action is to be taken on behalf of the victims of the Manx2 Airport plane crash.
It's claimed that legal action, which could to could lead to a 100 million euro pay-out, is to be taken on behalf of the victims of the Manx2 Airport plane crash.
Six people died and six were injured in the February 10th tragedy at Cork Airport when the Manx2 plane crashed on landing in thick fog.
It has been reported in Irish media that the case will be taken against the Douglas based airline Manx2, the Spanish operator Flightline BCN, and the American manufacturers of the craft, Fairchild Swearingen.
A report on the disaster by the Air Accident Investigation Unit, which is to be released midweek, is to form part of the legal challenge.
It's claimed that legal action is to be taken on behalf of the victims of the Manx2 Airport plane crash.
It's claimed that legal action, which could to could lead to a 100 million euro pay-out, is to be taken on behalf of the victims of the Manx2 Airport plane crash.
Six people died and six were injured in the February 10th tragedy at Cork Airport when the Manx2 plane crashed on landing in thick fog.
It has been reported in Irish media that the case will be taken against the Douglas based airline Manx2, the Spanish operator Flightline BCN, and the American manufacturers of the craft, Fairchild Swearingen.
A report on the disaster by the Air Accident Investigation Unit, which is to be released midweek, is to form part of the legal challenge.
More bang for your buck
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link to report: Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports
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Report
Well,
There you go people.
All the rubbish all along regarding engine failures etc.
I stopped reading after the first 4 pages.
The crew continued through the Approach ban point without going around when they should of due RVR being below the required minima.
I stood back for along time closely looking at the topic and the waffle took place!
The people here who waffled on should, for the next time think about all the possible scenarios before shouting from the lip!
I guess it’s very clear now.
This was Controlled flight into terrain and unfortunately another case of pilot error!
There you go people.
All the rubbish all along regarding engine failures etc.
I stopped reading after the first 4 pages.
The crew continued through the Approach ban point without going around when they should of due RVR being below the required minima.
I stood back for along time closely looking at the topic and the waffle took place!
The people here who waffled on should, for the next time think about all the possible scenarios before shouting from the lip!
I guess it’s very clear now.
This was Controlled flight into terrain and unfortunately another case of pilot error!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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The only query I have is does anyone know what could have caused the initial roll to the left on the last g/a? Could this link to the state of the props as seen?