Crash-Cork Airport
Get over the props!
All sorts of bits of this aircraft are bent, broken and twisted, and often times the state of these things are clues as to why an accident occurred, but come on - in this case all the guidance from those that might know a little more than someone just reading this forum or looking at the pics, is that the state of the props (missing or otherwise) is NOT the cause of the accident. The state they are in now is a result of the accident, not the same thing at all.
The key issue is how did the aircraft end up in such a posture as to detach a good part of the right wing from the rest of the aircraft through some maneuver leading to a wingtip strike, resulting in the aircraft rapidly inverting due to the immediate loss of lift. This is not hard to visualize at all. Quite what the props were doing during all this is really rather a moot point, they were along for the ride, short as it was from that point in time on.
The comments from current or prior Metroliner pilots have been the most enlightening additions to this thread so far - thanks to those that have spoken up.
To those that seem to find relief in slinging mud, amusing as it is, should probably figure out what the PM feature is for and take it "inside".
The key issue is how did the aircraft end up in such a posture as to detach a good part of the right wing from the rest of the aircraft through some maneuver leading to a wingtip strike, resulting in the aircraft rapidly inverting due to the immediate loss of lift. This is not hard to visualize at all. Quite what the props were doing during all this is really rather a moot point, they were along for the ride, short as it was from that point in time on.
The comments from current or prior Metroliner pilots have been the most enlightening additions to this thread so far - thanks to those that have spoken up.
To those that seem to find relief in slinging mud, amusing as it is, should probably figure out what the PM feature is for and take it "inside".
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Originally Posted by corsair
I'm amused to see PBL try and put down HUM
As usual, straightforward technical questions are turning into barroom commentary on who's doing/saying what. I say again: this really doesn't interest me that much. What interests me is features of the accident: I am an accident analyst, amongst other things, and certainly not a barroom-commentary sociologist.
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control authority
I flew the Metro 2a, Metro 3. and Metro 4.
while one might complain a bit about heavy controls, the plane is completely flyable at all normal speeds.
there are also expressions about going to idle and losing speed quickly. this shows a misunderstanding of the engine prop system. Suffice to say, this plane, when properly maintained and properly flown is adequate (though not one of my favorite planes) for its mission.
Indeed, there is a version of this plane flying for the USAF in an odd sort of electronic role. (at least last time I checked).
flying fast to maintain control authority just tells me that someone doesn't have a clue. (granted, flying fast requires smaller control inputs) Mind you, I've seen pilots make big mistakes in understanding this type of plane. I am not saying that is the case here.
When the throttles are placed to idle (assuming properly trimed and rigged) the plane will lose speed...if placed to idle and the prop /throttle rigging is incorrect the plane can lose speed very quickly as the props go to flat and basically become discs creating drag. But pilots know this...it is quite handy going into mountainous airports ( I flew this type into KTVL...over 6000'msl).
BUT I DON"T THINK ANY OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CRASH.
Not all planes ''feel" like a cessna 182...a metro feels like a metro, a 737 like a 737 (which somehow reminds me of a C182) and the MU2 feels very disharmonious...but is flyable.
Shaking my head. Hope some more facts come to light.
I would also like to know what position the flaps are in and what was selected. Can't determine from photo.
while one might complain a bit about heavy controls, the plane is completely flyable at all normal speeds.
there are also expressions about going to idle and losing speed quickly. this shows a misunderstanding of the engine prop system. Suffice to say, this plane, when properly maintained and properly flown is adequate (though not one of my favorite planes) for its mission.
Indeed, there is a version of this plane flying for the USAF in an odd sort of electronic role. (at least last time I checked).
flying fast to maintain control authority just tells me that someone doesn't have a clue. (granted, flying fast requires smaller control inputs) Mind you, I've seen pilots make big mistakes in understanding this type of plane. I am not saying that is the case here.
When the throttles are placed to idle (assuming properly trimed and rigged) the plane will lose speed...if placed to idle and the prop /throttle rigging is incorrect the plane can lose speed very quickly as the props go to flat and basically become discs creating drag. But pilots know this...it is quite handy going into mountainous airports ( I flew this type into KTVL...over 6000'msl).
BUT I DON"T THINK ANY OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CRASH.
Not all planes ''feel" like a cessna 182...a metro feels like a metro, a 737 like a 737 (which somehow reminds me of a C182) and the MU2 feels very disharmonious...but is flyable.
Shaking my head. Hope some more facts come to light.
I would also like to know what position the flaps are in and what was selected. Can't determine from photo.
Dog Tired
I wish I had never mentioned I thought the prop looked as if it were feathered.
Please do not attack PBL anymore; we need talent here and are losing it far too quickly due amateurs/wannabees/anybody else attacking professional people.
It is a great shame and PPRuNe continues to lose contributers and audience.
Please do not attack PBL anymore; we need talent here and are losing it far too quickly due amateurs/wannabees/anybody else attacking professional people.
It is a great shame and PPRuNe continues to lose contributers and audience.
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Just so you know the CV will have been an old ****e 30min tape with 4 tracks and the FDR is a 16 channel thing which is more than often not working.
Last edited by mad_jock; 25th Feb 2011 at 21:55.
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Manx2 cancels Belfast Cork route from March 15.
Manx2 has announced that "following an operational review of the route, undertaken following the accident at Cork on Feb 10th", the Belfast Cork service will be withdrawn after March 13th.
"in order to minimise the effect on booked passengers" the service will be maintained until March 13th
.
No other routes or flights are affected.
"in order to minimise the effect on booked passengers" the service will be maintained until March 13th
.
No other routes or flights are affected.
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Not picking on PBL, a worthy contributor. Just happen to know HUM and his background. Take my word for it, he's no Microsoft pilot. Like HUM I picked up on the subtle implication from the AAIU spokesperson that the engine had not failed. That's all.
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corsair
didn't the aaiu say the plane was operating normally when the approach began?
I don' t know why people won't buy my idea that they got a bit disoriented near the runway, during the transition to visual, and over controlled themselves into hitting the wing and flipping over.
it happens.
didn't the aaiu say the plane was operating normally when the approach began?
I don' t know why people won't buy my idea that they got a bit disoriented near the runway, during the transition to visual, and over controlled themselves into hitting the wing and flipping over.
it happens.
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I know, it looks like that based on the info from ex Metro pilots. But you know it's the internet and all that....................
A lot of people are ignoring the elephant in the room. Others cannot see it.
A lot of people are ignoring the elephant in the room. Others cannot see it.
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sevenstrokeroll made a very very interesting statement there!!
Maybe gives food for thought perhaps ?
rgds
Maybe gives food for thought perhaps ?
rgds
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I don' t know why people won't buy my idea that they got a bit disoriented near the runway, during the transition to visual, and over controlled themselves into hitting the wing and flipping over.
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Whats the flight director like on the metro?
The sperry ones we have are pretty good but down low the in built lag requires you to look through to keep the sensative localiser scale bang in the middle.
And I agree with A pumps it does require a wee bit of experence to suppress the urge to make the picture fit with inapproaprate control inputs when you get that intial "lights in sight" the max 5 degs bank is there for a reason.
Again we come back to a tight stabilised approach well within the tolerances afforded leads to a safe landing.
For those that don't do manual ILS's or NPA every day it is quite normal for competent crew to fly it so exactly that if you just saw the instrument you wouldn't be able to tell if there was a AP driving it or it was hand flown. For an experenced eye you would be able to tell because you would see the ballooning when lift flap was selected with the AP machine where as the manual the pilot would have spun in a couple of turns on the trim wheel as the flap was running so you wouldn't see the balloon.
Unfortuantely seven the group feeling amongst my mates is that you are correct. There wasn't much point at the time running with your theory because the CAT II pish was getting rolled out.
Anyway for those of us that do this sort of stuff day in day out fly safe, its only a job at the end of the day. No point paying the ultimate price to prove that you were right and it wasn't safe to go.
The sperry ones we have are pretty good but down low the in built lag requires you to look through to keep the sensative localiser scale bang in the middle.
And I agree with A pumps it does require a wee bit of experence to suppress the urge to make the picture fit with inapproaprate control inputs when you get that intial "lights in sight" the max 5 degs bank is there for a reason.
Again we come back to a tight stabilised approach well within the tolerances afforded leads to a safe landing.
For those that don't do manual ILS's or NPA every day it is quite normal for competent crew to fly it so exactly that if you just saw the instrument you wouldn't be able to tell if there was a AP driving it or it was hand flown. For an experenced eye you would be able to tell because you would see the ballooning when lift flap was selected with the AP machine where as the manual the pilot would have spun in a couple of turns on the trim wheel as the flap was running so you wouldn't see the balloon.
Unfortuantely seven the group feeling amongst my mates is that you are correct. There wasn't much point at the time running with your theory because the CAT II pish was getting rolled out.
Anyway for those of us that do this sort of stuff day in day out fly safe, its only a job at the end of the day. No point paying the ultimate price to prove that you were right and it wasn't safe to go.
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Scratch that last question. Looks like you metro boys have even less to play with than I do.
Looks like you have a similar ergonomic nightmare to deal with though with switches and instruments stuck every where. That backup up AH and other instruments must be a bloody nightmare to use and how the FO is meant to see them lord knows. Seems a bit daft as well with all that panel empty in the middle. Although I presume every cockpit will be different depending on who and what has been installed.
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the metros I flew didn't have a flight director...all raw data...though we thought we were really pretty cool having a HSI.
If you look at the photo...there are two red knobs (for feathering prop), to the left of the red knobs there is a red and white hatchmark square. within that square is a switch which transfers horizontal trim from pilot to copilot.
it is that switch that I would like to know the position ! that would tell us who was flying the plane.
bio botal...I haven't heard the expression ''dirty dive'' in a long time! We usually say: duck the glideslope..
again I ask...what position were the flaps????
IF you fly raw data all the time and do it frequently you can get quite good at it...
I've flow the metro into fog bound airports, raw data and gotten in, while very well equipped 737's ended up going around. We both had the same minimums that particular day. And I didn't cheat!!!!
If you look at the photo...there are two red knobs (for feathering prop), to the left of the red knobs there is a red and white hatchmark square. within that square is a switch which transfers horizontal trim from pilot to copilot.
it is that switch that I would like to know the position ! that would tell us who was flying the plane.
bio botal...I haven't heard the expression ''dirty dive'' in a long time! We usually say: duck the glideslope..
again I ask...what position were the flaps????
IF you fly raw data all the time and do it frequently you can get quite good at it...
I've flow the metro into fog bound airports, raw data and gotten in, while very well equipped 737's ended up going around. We both had the same minimums that particular day. And I didn't cheat!!!!
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Instrument stack outboard of FOs' right Knee
Top to Bottom / Left / Right
Pneumatic De-ice Pressure / Oxygen Pressure
Suction / Hydraulic Pressure
Cabin Air Temp / AWI Quantity
Outboard of the stack is 8 day clock over the hour meter.
Top to Bottom / Left / Right
Pneumatic De-ice Pressure / Oxygen Pressure
Suction / Hydraulic Pressure
Cabin Air Temp / AWI Quantity
Outboard of the stack is 8 day clock over the hour meter.
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Nope I was just going on what my aircraft has fitted.
Which is a Allied Signal UFDR and ours only records 5
And from having a look at other AIBB reports the Metro appears to be fitted with a L3 communications unit 17m900-274. I have done a search but can't pull the spec.
Air Accidents Investigation: Fairchild SA227 AC Metro III, EC-JCU
the CVR panel looks the same as ours so presume it will be a 30min tape
Which is a Allied Signal UFDR and ours only records 5
And from having a look at other AIBB reports the Metro appears to be fitted with a L3 communications unit 17m900-274. I have done a search but can't pull the spec.
Air Accidents Investigation: Fairchild SA227 AC Metro III, EC-JCU
the CVR panel looks the same as ours so presume it will be a 30min tape
Last edited by mad_jock; 26th Feb 2011 at 16:53.
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remember, this type was orignally a single pilot plane...stretched to the max ...there was a concept of turning this into a 25 seat airliner with a cargo pod on the belly.
even a JET version.
contemplated only
even a JET version.
contemplated only
