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Pilots didn't know about evacuation

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Pilots didn't know about evacuation

Old 12th Feb 2011, 12:01
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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I would suggest that this scenario is discussed at length by all airlines conducting crm refresher.I could facilitate this one for hours with a mixed group of pilots and cabin crew.I really thought that after many years of crm discussion it could not occur in a respected uk airline where the pilots were unaware of an evacuation.
I have also found it enlightening with the input from some of the posters who are clearly passengers ,that they would be prepared to act on there own judgement of a situation. This is to be applauded in a major incident yet questioned in minor incidents when pilots or cabin crew were available to give guidance.Would they go for the armed doors if the bread rolls were burnt taxing out and smelt it when the oven door was opened!/wet start/tail pipe fire and others, Who knows.
As has been said lessons will be learned and I am not a member of the blame group,however from my early days in aviation where crm did not exist to some 30 years later and countless crm courses,has its message got muddled.
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 13:16
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Oldbalboy - Normally, I would go along with the sentiments expressed in your post. I do take your point about changes caused as a result of mergers (and the associated stress) and also about the possible lack of guidance from the flight deck. But the way I read this report is that post incident, in the cold light of day, the SCCM told the AAIB "She added that given similar circumstances, with no rear steps in place and with the very distinct smell of burning in the rear of the aircraft, she would again consider initiating an evacuation." I'm as imperfect as the the next person. I'll hold my hand up and say "I made a mistake." When something untoward (like unnecessarily injuring passengers) has happened, I'll listen, I'll try and learn, I'll change - because that is the only way we improve and make our industry a safer place. But the statement above is from a dinosaur in denial, someone who is unwilling listen or learn. This is why I disagree with you. If I've got this wrong, then I'll apologise and I'll change my new carear suggestion.

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Old 12th Feb 2011, 13:16
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I have also found it enlightening with the input from some of the posters who are clearly passengers ,that they would be prepared to act on there own judgement of a situation. This is to be applauded in a major incident yet questioned in minor incidents when pilots or cabin crew were available to give guidance.
In this case, the pilots had no awareness of what was happening in the cabin, and the cabin crew was unable to properly assess and act upon the situation. That's not a very reassuring situation for passengers. The guidance of the crew in this case was nearly worthless, since they either didn't know what was happening or misjudged it. This is a strong argument in support of taking the initiative if things appear to be going south.

Hopping off the airplane if danger appears to threaten will, at worst, perhaps get you a broken ankle and some legal troubles. Staying on the airplane in a potentially dangerous situation while you wait for the crew to figure things out can cost you your life. If the crew says evacuate, I evacuate. If the crew doesn't say evacuate but there's an obvious potential danger, I still evacuate.

As for evacuating my house if I smell something like burning, I don't do that automatically, since I know my house extremely well, and house fires are often obvious when they occur, so I have time and ability to assess the situation. If I smell something burning in a nightclub or store, however, I head for the exit without trying to guess whether it's a hazard or not. An aircraft is an environment with many people, few exits, and many hidden spots where fires can hide until they abruptly blaze out of control—all of which mean that I evacuate at the first sign of a potential fire. I've read the literature and seen the tests with respect to aircraft fires, and they are just too dangerous to allow anyone to take a chance.

Some safety principles transcend specific domains. Whether one be crew or not, "professional" or not, some concepts remain the same. If you smell something like burning, and you cannot get immediate assurance that it is not a fire, then you leave. It's just simple logic. This FA did not get the immediate assurance that was required for safety, so she evacuated. In retrospect it was unnecessary, but the FA didn't have the benefit of hindsight and she did the right thing. It amazes me that anyone would want to fire her for failing to obtain the permission of the Lord Captain. If there had been a fire, and had she not evacuated, she'd be drawn and quartered … if she survived.
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 14:13
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Piltdown man totally agree with you regarding her comments to the aaib hence the fact the company issued the notice making it very clear when they can initiate (before this the guidance was when the situation is life threatening?? one persons perception of this could be very different to anothers so the company clearly defined it with examples).

I wasnt there but my view point would have been to get the captains attention if they failed to respond i would have to act on my own initiative with what i could see hear and smell personally as nothing visible to crew in cabin ie smoke/flames or even a haze or misting i would have stuck to a rapid disembarkation using airbridge as to me that is not immediatly life threatening but be ready to upgrade to full evac if conditions deteriorated.

I was in a situation many years ago ( engineer & dispatcher shouting at me fire in avionics bay get everyone off now f/d door slammed in my face no response to alert call! did exactly that rapidly deplaned pax without handluggage up air bridge its suprising how fast they respond when all the crew are shouting at them!).

Evacuation should be last resort ie when life threatening as people can get hurt or worse using slides, one of the comments on the report was some pax suffered minor injury as the result of other pax colliding with them at bottom of slide, as i mentioned in earlier thread the pax profile on this route is mainly elderly/slow walker or infirm they cant get off the bottom and run like younger people and would have hoped once having initiated it the scc could have shouted back into f/deck we are evacuating am sure they would have responed then!

The AAIB made recommendations in their report and these have been adopted by the company and this has subsequently been passed to all crew via a safety notice very soon after the actual event and is being covered on this winters refresher course and on joint crm.
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 16:26
  #85 (permalink)  

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If you smell something like burning, and you cannot get immediate assurance that it is not a fire, then you leave.
Actually it was a failed bearing, nothing was burning.

It's just simple logic.
No it is not. Re-read previous posts from people who actually know what they are talking about.
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 17:02
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher
I have never worked at a company that has required the cabin crew to seek my permission to evacuate. Nor have they been required to let us know they were going either. One shouldn't assume but one will that there is a fair chance that we would realise. Loud PA, doors opening, stamping of feet, screaming(!).

It must have been the quietest, most orderly, evacuation ever for the flight deck not to have noticed.
But wouldn't the evacuation include the flight deck crew? Shouldn't you be notified to evacuate?
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 17:57
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Cabin crew member opinion...

As another Cabin Crew member for a large UK airline (not the one concerned) I do think some people should really cut the SCCM some slack!

In my airline if the situation is not Catastrophic the Flight crew initate... we wait for instructions or attempt to communicate with them. However if it is Catastrophic we can initiate WITHOUT prior permission from Flight Crew... We have Evacuation Alarms on most aircraft and most doors which not all airlines have and we use them if possible/fitted to our door. Catastrophic at my airline is defined as situation that is unmanageable and poses an extreme and immediate threat to life or the pilots are likely to be incapacitated. This sounds similar to most airlines including TOM.

From reading the report I wouldn't consider the situation catastrophic, like most people on here, and if she really wanted to evacuate she should have asked the F/C first... Especially as she had already been in so had communicated beforehand. Also, as only Doors 4 was used (and 2 which was normal disembarkation) She could have popped her head in IF she was at Door 1(I presume she was) and let them know.

However, as mentioned many times before, everyones perception of ''life threatening'' and ''catastrophic'' can differ, it seems the airline has reminded all crew of the procedure and what can be classified as catastrophic. We were not onboard that aircraft, under pressure, it is easy to criticise the SCCM however she (and the rest of the crew including Flight Crew) were all under pressure. She made that decision... Probably not the best, however lessons have been learnt and she was being overcautious. Which in most cases is better than not taking things seriously which has happened before and led to loss of life.

I also think - what if the SCCM was not getting an answer from Flight Crew - I know they were investigating but what if they thought it was nothing but the crew in the cabin felt, under their experience that it was worse? Remember she did use the alert button which on the 757/767 (at my airline anyway) contacts FD and CC at the same time.. She did not get a response from Flight Crew... There may be more to the story... However either way CRM doesn't sound to be at it's best here to say the least!

I think all airlines should cover this in CRM and my airline does cover catastriophic a lot. Ironically we used to have examples however now the two examples I mentioned are the criteria. It is up to ones judgement. Of course in this incident, CRM was not at it's best but lessons can be learnt... The SCCM is not a failure, she would have been debriefed, she probably followed SOP/procedures otherwise but got carried away. Not saying it is right, but remember in CRM we learn from things...

Less of the blame, let's learn from this and improve safety that way rather than pointing a finger! She didn't cause loss of life!
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 18:31
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well said slide bustle
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 20:37
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Actually it was a failed bearing, nothing was burning.
If you don't know what a failed bearing smells like, how do you know that nothing is burning?
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 20:54
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If you don't know what a failed bearing smells like, how do you know that nothing is burning?
Try common sense, AnthonyGA, rather than using what little totally inadequate 'knowledge' you might possess about large airline ops.
Which, all things considered...ain't much.
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 23:11
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Which is why I love, so much, good SOPs.....

At my former company, from which I retired, we had (still have, I suppose....but, it's been several years since my departure) very detailed and explicit SOPs. Very good operation, I feel....

It's an odd thing to say, but, in a way, good SOPs take the guesswork out of flying. Less need for judgement. Less need for aviation skill. Less need for knowledge. This is not a good thinig....but, over the years of me 'constantly conforming' to 'the way they want it done', I've come to be quite comfortable with this. And, professionally, this has served me well.

In this instance (the point of this thread), SOPs would have circumvented the problem. Good, solid, well-thought-out, industry-conformaing, authority-sanctioned SOPs. Ones that work, ones that are practical, ones that make sense.

Following such SOPs are great....it's like being a little kid with a security blanket. Makes one feel warm and fuzzy. Flights, routinely, end without incident. Rain or shine, day or dark....without incident.

SOPs are a beautiful thing.....

So, did the lead flight attendant follow SOPs? Did the pilots follow SOPs? Did SOPs exist for this type of situation? Did someone, at some point in the evolution of civilization, sit down and think such a situation could manifest? Did someone or 'someones' develop an SOP for such a situation? Was the SOP well-thought-through, did it conform to industry standards, was it FAA sanctioned? (Or JAA or whatever....)

Ah, yes.....


Fly safe,


PantLoad
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Old 12th Feb 2011, 23:16
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Try common sense, AnthonyGA, rather than using what little totally inadequate 'knowledge' you might possess about large airline ops.
According to his profile AnthonyGA is a FlightSim captain.
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 05:38
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According to his profile AnthonyGA is a FlightSim captain.
So it seems, yet he continues to make a fool of himself with his odd statements....must be something in the local drinking water supply.
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 08:18
  #94 (permalink)  
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No FD Warning?

Surely there must be some form of warning on the FD that a door or doors are open when the craft isn't in a parked/shut-down condition?

What about the deployment of slides, isn't that worthy of a FD alarm?
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 09:22
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See post #60

......... on the B757. There are no indications on the FD that slides are deployed. You can't even tell if they are armed or disarmed .........
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 09:34
  #96 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tiib
Surely there must be some form of warning on the FD that a door or doors are open when the craft isn't in a parked/shut-down condition?
a) To avoid confusion - the a/c was in a "parked/shut-down condition". Passengers were disembarking via a jetty as I recall - no engines running to eat naughty passengers. The c/crew would know this because the seat belt sign would be off. The pilots would have expected the rear doors to be opened at some point in the turn-round.

b) Yes, there are indications in the F/deck that a door/doors are open
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 10:30
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It's not a great idea to post the wording of our PA alert calls on a public forum.
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 10:48
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emergency

SLF here: was the word 'emergency' used in the PA announcement ? Does an evacuation by itself mean that an emergency situation has been detected. Can CC declare an emergency ? Not impressed: if I was interviewing I would be investigating if panic was a factor in the decision making.
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 11:57
  #99 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Basil
It's not a great idea to post the wording of our PA alert calls on a public forum.
- any clue as to whom that was addressed? In any case, I fancy a touch of paranoia here, since many airlines have different calls. I can see nothing to concern me.

Picking up on 'rjay' in post #71 (I have only just noticed!)
From what the SCCM had said at a recent Refresher course, after speaking with the the FD she asked passengers to exit the a/c via the airbridge rapidly (a rapid disembarkation).
- if this is THAT purser and THAT incident THAT is not what she reportedly said. She did NOT order a "rapid disembarkation" nor did she ask the passengers to 'exit the a/c" - she said 'EVACUATE". I quote from the report

"Please evacuate the aircraft as quickly as possible. Leave all hand baggage behind.

One would expect then, a properly trained rear crew to react accordingly and deploy the slides (as they did). I still accord with Checkboard that it was an incorrect and unfortunate PA. I am convinced she did not intend an 'emergency evacuation' in any way.
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Old 13th Feb 2011, 12:02
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It's not a great idea to post the wording of our PA alert calls on a public forum.
Indeed. Edited my post.
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