LHR Inebriated DL Pilot Sentenced to Six Months
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LProuse:
Let me be more specific. I was a member of the TWA MEC in the mid-1980s. What I stated was the absolute policy at TWA. At MEC meetings we were advised by the experts that TWA's policy was in compliance with FAA requirements and industry standards.
We were never advised that the on-duty apprehension requirements were more relaxed, apparently significantly more relaxed, at some other carriers. Nor, do I recall it being mentioned by anyone in an ad hoc manner.
We had two or three cases of termination for showing up in circumstances quite similar to the case of this thread. Those terminations were sustained at the five person board. I was not privy to the record of those cases but if ALPA legal argued the more permissive policies at some other carriers, it did not carry the day. It could be, though, that a retirement deal was cut in the late stages of those cases, and we just thought termination had been sustained.
Well, that's not quite true. I don't want to rehash all I wrote quite some while back so go back and take a look at the referral link if you're interested.
We were never advised that the on-duty apprehension requirements were more relaxed, apparently significantly more relaxed, at some other carriers. Nor, do I recall it being mentioned by anyone in an ad hoc manner.
We had two or three cases of termination for showing up in circumstances quite similar to the case of this thread. Those terminations were sustained at the five person board. I was not privy to the record of those cases but if ALPA legal argued the more permissive policies at some other carriers, it did not carry the day. It could be, though, that a retirement deal was cut in the late stages of those cases, and we just thought termination had been sustained.
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As a non airline person but with an amateur interest in aviation I have to say I'm amazed by some of the views here. Let me put it to you this way, as a regular fare paying passenger I don't want a pilot turning up, if not blind drunk, then over the limit. In fact I don't want him to have any alcohol in his blood at all. I'm not going to enter the debate about alcoholism, I think it's all been said already in this topic. The simple matter is that I don't want a pilot flying my plane to have their judgment impaired by alcohol, and if they do, I expect the penalty to be pretty bloody severe.
Personally I think 6 months in pokey is derisory. I couldn't care less whether they are fighting alcoholism or not, that is totally and utterly besides the point. I might add that I am not without compassion and lost my closest friend to alcohol related illness in 2009. But if they have a drink problem they should NOT be entrusted with the lives of hundreds of people in a commercial aircraft. As someone said earlier on, you wouldn't want your children to be driven to school by an alcoholic bus driver, so what is the difference exactly? I hope as a punter and one of the many long haul passengers that pay your salaries I have made my point clearly enough.
Personally I think 6 months in pokey is derisory. I couldn't care less whether they are fighting alcoholism or not, that is totally and utterly besides the point. I might add that I am not without compassion and lost my closest friend to alcohol related illness in 2009. But if they have a drink problem they should NOT be entrusted with the lives of hundreds of people in a commercial aircraft. As someone said earlier on, you wouldn't want your children to be driven to school by an alcoholic bus driver, so what is the difference exactly? I hope as a punter and one of the many long haul passengers that pay your salaries I have made my point clearly enough.
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"The simple matter is that I don't want a pilot flying my plane to have their judgment impaired by alcohol"
Rightly so.
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, one of whom was over the locally imposd limit for operating an aircraft at the time of report for duty?
Compared to:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, both of whom had just had a few hours of broken sleep in an airport motel. During the flight, both pilots took it in turns to sleep, but neither could be relied upon to stay awake?
Which in your opinion (and I'm not been sarcastic, your perception of risk and opinion is valued, to me at least) is the safer operation?
Rightly so.
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, one of whom was over the locally imposd limit for operating an aircraft at the time of report for duty?
Compared to:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, both of whom had just had a few hours of broken sleep in an airport motel. During the flight, both pilots took it in turns to sleep, but neither could be relied upon to stay awake?
Which in your opinion (and I'm not been sarcastic, your perception of risk and opinion is valued, to me at least) is the safer operation?
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"Compared to..."
Maat
It's the "compared to" in your post that's the issue. It's not either/or, is it? A compelling reason for having a drink during a duty cycle is to help get to sleep in a noisy hotel, at the wrong time of day, when there's only 8 1/2 hours to get 8 hours of sleep, on the wrong time zone....
If it was a simple choice - pilot over the alcohol limit, or pilot who's not had enough rest - it would be easier to make a judgement. But it's not - the true problem is "pilot who's not had enough rest, and has had a couple of drinks to try to alleviate that."
R
It's the "compared to" in your post that's the issue. It's not either/or, is it? A compelling reason for having a drink during a duty cycle is to help get to sleep in a noisy hotel, at the wrong time of day, when there's only 8 1/2 hours to get 8 hours of sleep, on the wrong time zone....
If it was a simple choice - pilot over the alcohol limit, or pilot who's not had enough rest - it would be easier to make a judgement. But it's not - the true problem is "pilot who's not had enough rest, and has had a couple of drinks to try to alleviate that."
R
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Maat, I understand your point but we're talking about risk reduction. Of course pilots shouldn't be tired/jet lagged when they are flying, I fly to Oz and know it takes me three days to become anything more than a zombie after arriving there, so how pilots cope is beyond me. However I think we would be living in na na land if we thought we had a perfect world and it didn't happen, but that's for the regulatory bodies and pilot's unions to sort out (and sort it out they should IMO). I have every sympathy for pilots who have to work under draconian regimes that don't allow them any meaningful rest and I think that any company that forces inefficient timetabling of their pilots should be in court and the directors jailed.
Flying whilst under the influence however is entirely avoidable, it is the personal choice of the pilot. I fully understand that it may not be a personal choice to be an alcoholic but it is a personal choice to continue to fly knowing full well you have a problem. Pilots are well payed, rightly so, they are highly trained professionals, but with that comes a duty to your passengers.
Edit: rcsa, just read your post. I think there's a difference between having a couple of sherberts to relax yourself before 8 hours kip and getting totally trashed to get to sleep. No one should have to do that in an attempt to be compos mentis to do their job the next day and as I said operators should be held to account.
Looking at an earlier post I think there maybe some degree of 'can do' in the make up of a pilot, of not wanting to appear to be failing the company, of not wanting to be seen as less able to hack it than fellow pilots. I'm not a psychologist, I don't know the answer to that. I do know however that your primary and absolutely over riding duty is to see that the 300 or so souls in your charge are transported as safely as possible to their destination, and part of that duty is to reduce risk. Some risks it would appear are forced upon you, others aren't.
Flying whilst under the influence however is entirely avoidable, it is the personal choice of the pilot. I fully understand that it may not be a personal choice to be an alcoholic but it is a personal choice to continue to fly knowing full well you have a problem. Pilots are well payed, rightly so, they are highly trained professionals, but with that comes a duty to your passengers.
Edit: rcsa, just read your post. I think there's a difference between having a couple of sherberts to relax yourself before 8 hours kip and getting totally trashed to get to sleep. No one should have to do that in an attempt to be compos mentis to do their job the next day and as I said operators should be held to account.
Looking at an earlier post I think there maybe some degree of 'can do' in the make up of a pilot, of not wanting to appear to be failing the company, of not wanting to be seen as less able to hack it than fellow pilots. I'm not a psychologist, I don't know the answer to that. I do know however that your primary and absolutely over riding duty is to see that the 300 or so souls in your charge are transported as safely as possible to their destination, and part of that duty is to reduce risk. Some risks it would appear are forced upon you, others aren't.
Last edited by thing; 6th Feb 2011 at 09:57.
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Sherbert for Herbert
Edit: rcsa, just read your post. I think there's a difference between having a couple of sherberts to relax yourself before 8 hours kip and getting totally trashed to get to sleep. No one should have to do that in an attempt to be compos mentis to do their job the next day and as I said operators should be held to account.
Looking at an earlier post I think there maybe some degree of 'can do' in the make up of a pilot, of not wanting to appear to be failing the company, of not wanting to be seen as less able to hack it than fellow pilots.
But I suspect that the alpha culture is a hangover from the "good old days" when civilian airliner pilots were all ex-military - and of course, there's no place for risk-averse pilots in military flying in wartime.
Tom Wolfe makes an interesting point in his book "The Right Stuff" that the uber-calm, growly, tech-speak pax announcement made on every sector by every pilot in the world is directly descended from the way that US military pilots were encouraged to speak to tower - and other aircraft - in WWII; and that this was how Chuck Yeager spoke during his early flights to the sound barrier, and subesquently to the edge of space. That's alpha flying!
I've noted elsewhere on pprune that I believe one of the elements in the risk matrix that makes former Soviet aircraft so inclined to crash is that their aircrew are suffused with the "can-do, ignore the problems, fly on the red-line (especially with a little vodka lubrication)" attitude of the Sov and Sov-successor militaries.
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I don't think a couple of scotches and a glass of wine would put you over the limit 8 hours later. I'm thinking about the UK driving limit here, I don't know if there's a different limit for pilots.
None of us are saints, I'm sure we've all driven when we shouldn't have, even if we're not over the limit, but it's a different kettle of fish when you talk about being a pro pilot doing a sometimes demanding job that requires a cool head. I know that drunk drivers kill people, but most drivers are amateurs in the technical sense of the word and they don't kill 300 people at a time.
Your point about most airline pilots being ex military after the war which means they would have been flying into the late 1970's early 80's raises an interesting point They were the people who influenced today's senior captains so I wonder if that attitude hasn't been 'bred out' of the system yet? A friend of mine is a senior captain for a major carrier and he says that most ex mil pilots who start flying for his airline are a pita. Not all of them but some have definitely been there, seen it and done it and have nothing to learn from the likes of him. Bit worrying really.
None of us are saints, I'm sure we've all driven when we shouldn't have, even if we're not over the limit, but it's a different kettle of fish when you talk about being a pro pilot doing a sometimes demanding job that requires a cool head. I know that drunk drivers kill people, but most drivers are amateurs in the technical sense of the word and they don't kill 300 people at a time.
Your point about most airline pilots being ex military after the war which means they would have been flying into the late 1970's early 80's raises an interesting point They were the people who influenced today's senior captains so I wonder if that attitude hasn't been 'bred out' of the system yet? A friend of mine is a senior captain for a major carrier and he says that most ex mil pilots who start flying for his airline are a pita. Not all of them but some have definitely been there, seen it and done it and have nothing to learn from the likes of him. Bit worrying really.
thing:
"I don't think a couple of scotches and a glass of wine would put you over the limit 8 hours later".
Then you tell us that you don't know if the limits for a pilot are the same as a car driver. You certainly don't, so I simply can't see how you can make the original statement.
If we make a very basic comparison, you are allowed to drive a vehicle in UK provided that you haven't consumed more than 2 pints of ordinary bitter.
The limit for pilots is the equivalent of 1/2 pint of ordinary bitter.
Would you like to reconsider your original statement?
"I don't think a couple of scotches and a glass of wine would put you over the limit 8 hours later".
Then you tell us that you don't know if the limits for a pilot are the same as a car driver. You certainly don't, so I simply can't see how you can make the original statement.
If we make a very basic comparison, you are allowed to drive a vehicle in UK provided that you haven't consumed more than 2 pints of ordinary bitter.
The limit for pilots is the equivalent of 1/2 pint of ordinary bitter.
Would you like to reconsider your original statement?
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Semantics. I'm talking as a layman here when talking about the alcohol limits for pilots, I didn't know what they were, I do now, thank you for pointing them out to me. I think that most members of the public would automatically think of the limits for driving a vehicle when talking about limits for pilots, it's just association with the words 'alcohol limits'.
I'm not here to knock pilots as I think you have taken umbrage with my understandable lack of knowledge. I have flown many hours as a passenger with nothing but the highest regard for the crews that have flown me from one side of the world to another. As a sport I fly gliders, which is where my interest in other aspects of aviation comes from but I know very little about the world of professional airline pilots, or any type of professional pilot come to think of it, which is surely why forums like these are useful. I as a passenger can voice my concerns when I read threads like this and you as a professional can say 'Well actually it's not like that.' We all learn, can't see anything wrong in that.
I'm not here to knock pilots as I think you have taken umbrage with my understandable lack of knowledge. I have flown many hours as a passenger with nothing but the highest regard for the crews that have flown me from one side of the world to another. As a sport I fly gliders, which is where my interest in other aspects of aviation comes from but I know very little about the world of professional airline pilots, or any type of professional pilot come to think of it, which is surely why forums like these are useful. I as a passenger can voice my concerns when I read threads like this and you as a professional can say 'Well actually it's not like that.' We all learn, can't see anything wrong in that.
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maat:
Rightly so.
That's a specious analogy.
Rightly so.
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, one of whom was over the locally imposd limit for operating an aircraft at the time of report for duty?
Compared to:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, both of whom had just had a few hours of broken sleep in an airport motel. During the flight, both pilots took it in turns to sleep, but neither could be relied upon to stay awake?
Which in your opinion (and I'm not been sarcastic, your perception of risk and opinion is valued, to me at least) is the safer operation?
Compared to:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, both of whom had just had a few hours of broken sleep in an airport motel. During the flight, both pilots took it in turns to sleep, but neither could be relied upon to stay awake?
Which in your opinion (and I'm not been sarcastic, your perception of risk and opinion is valued, to me at least) is the safer operation?
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FWIW I'm with Rod, Lyle and Brian on this one. Showing up on duty over the limit should rightly cost him his job, but should not preclude a path back if he wants to get clean.
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To Thing et al
There seems to be some inane idea that anyone talking about, or trying to explain, alcoholism is thereby justifying or excusing the behavior that results from it.
That's nonsense and is NOT what understanding alcoholism is about!
Most alcoholics, including myself, understand AND ACCEPT that "When you do what you did - you get what you got!"
Consequences are appropriate...so there's no argument in that regard.
But there IS life after alcoholism...and there IS a road back.
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
That's nonsense and is NOT what understanding alcoholism is about!
Most alcoholics, including myself, understand AND ACCEPT that "When you do what you did - you get what you got!"
Consequences are appropriate...so there's no argument in that regard.
But there IS life after alcoholism...and there IS a road back.
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
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And I applaud your bravery in talking about it on a public forum Lyle. I for one am glad that you rebuilt your life and wish you every success for the future.
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For what it's worth I read your original thread many years ago, and having struggled with substance abuse problems myself in my youth found your story enlightening and inspiring.
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thing, Sir;
I was thinking about risk reduction too, that is why I asked the question. I wanted to know how an experienced passenger perceives risk, therefore I was interested in your response to my question.
Please could you answer the question, repeated below:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, one of whom was over the locally imposd limit for operating an aircraft at the time of report for duty?
Compared to:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, both of whom had just had a few hours of broken sleep in an airport motel. During the flight, both pilots took it in turns to sleep, but neither could be relied upon to stay awake?
Which in your opinion (and I'm not been sarcastic, your perception of risk and opinion is valued, to me at least) is the safer operation?
6th Feb 2011 01:13
Thanks
maat
I was thinking about risk reduction too, that is why I asked the question. I wanted to know how an experienced passenger perceives risk, therefore I was interested in your response to my question.
Please could you answer the question, repeated below:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, one of whom was over the locally imposd limit for operating an aircraft at the time of report for duty?
Compared to:
How would you feel if you had to fly in the back of an aircraft that was operated by two pilots, both of whom had just had a few hours of broken sleep in an airport motel. During the flight, both pilots took it in turns to sleep, but neither could be relied upon to stay awake?
Which in your opinion (and I'm not been sarcastic, your perception of risk and opinion is valued, to me at least) is the safer operation?
6th Feb 2011 01:13
Thanks
maat
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I would go for the first one. If one pilot is over the locally imposed limit and the other isn't then obviously it's got to be safer than two overtired pilots. I take it that this isn't a hypothetical question and this does happen....(runs off to see if ocean liners still go to Oz...)
In an ideal world of course I would like my pilots to be well rested, fed properly and had their every need seen to by young trolly dollys so that they can concentrate on the job in hand and transport my ageing carcass across the seven seas in safety and comfort. (Why does the Bay of Bengal always have a bumpy ride?) But the more this thread goes on, the more I realise that I may have been living a happy, though completely misinformed flying existence.
In an ideal world of course I would like my pilots to be well rested, fed properly and had their every need seen to by young trolly dollys so that they can concentrate on the job in hand and transport my ageing carcass across the seven seas in safety and comfort. (Why does the Bay of Bengal always have a bumpy ride?) But the more this thread goes on, the more I realise that I may have been living a happy, though completely misinformed flying existence.
Last edited by thing; 6th Feb 2011 at 18:19.
Thing, have you stopped driving or riding in cars? There are far more problems with sleepy or intoxicated drivers than there are with pilots. What say you to trying to put some perspective on life. 
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I do have perspective on life, I know that flying is the safest form of transport, that driving is more dangerous and all of the other good stuff, it's about reducing risks for the nth time. I reduce risks as much as possible while driving/gliding. My destiny is to some extent in my own hands. I've never had a flying accident in 20 years of gliding or a driving accident in 38 years of driving/riding motorcycles. That doesn't mean I'm some kind of super pilot/driver but it does mean that I assess risk and take appropriate action. As a passenger and therefore at the whim of someone else's actions I would like them to reduce risk as much as possible as well. Seems reasonable to me.
Anyhow, I'm going to leave it there, one can never put across points very well on an internet forum, there isn't a icon for inflection or wry humour. I just thought it would be good to see a passenger perspective on all of this rather than the microsociety that exists in any profession with it's own customs and language, of which I am guilty of in my line of work as much as anyone else. I shall continue to fly happily as a passenger and I wish you all well and safe landings.
Anyhow, I'm going to leave it there, one can never put across points very well on an internet forum, there isn't a icon for inflection or wry humour. I just thought it would be good to see a passenger perspective on all of this rather than the microsociety that exists in any profession with it's own customs and language, of which I am guilty of in my line of work as much as anyone else. I shall continue to fly happily as a passenger and I wish you all well and safe landings.
Last edited by thing; 6th Feb 2011 at 21:34.
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J.O.
Apples to apples: To compare risks the sleepy or drunk driver would have to be driving the car in which I am riding.
There are far more problems with sleepy or intoxicated drivers than there are with pilots. What say you to trying to put some perspective on life.
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Continuing with DozyWannabe's mail, Capt Lyle Prouse's story of grit and determination is available as "From Conviction to Conviction - An Eagle Reborn" (Aviation Medicine Consultation :: AvMed - Fly Safe - Guidance, Information TIPS and Help on Aerospace Medicine with Human Factors).
This is with his due consent, as well as encouraging words from Brian and Rob. I hope, besides Lyle's active involvement in helping others, especially pilots, come out of scourge of alcohol, his inspiring story may serve as inspiration to many.
Blue skies...all
This is with his due consent, as well as encouraging words from Brian and Rob. I hope, besides Lyle's active involvement in helping others, especially pilots, come out of scourge of alcohol, his inspiring story may serve as inspiration to many.
Blue skies...all