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Finally some action made by DGCA

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Finally some action made by DGCA

Old 24th Dec 2010, 10:33
  #21 (permalink)  
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BOAC,

I think that what captjns is trying to say is that if the PIC leaves the cockpit for physiological reasons they leave behind a qualified co-pilot at the controls. They pointed out that from time to time when said Captain returns there may be a member of the cabin crew sitting in their seat chatting with the FO. In this case there was a qualified copilot at the controls and the Captain remained in the cockpit - just not in their seat.

While I don't condone the actions cited, it is not that unusual for one of the seats to be vacant during the cruise. There does not seem to be any mention of the CPL ever touching anything or doing anything other than keeping the seat warm.

I agree with the other posters who say that if the (now qualified Captain) considered that there was any safety risk they should have spoken up at the time - but clearly they were willing to do something that they believed to be unsafe / against SOP so as to not to rock the boat that was their career. Put that same Captain in another situation where promotion and money have to be balanced against safety and what do you think the answer will be?
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 12:11
  #22 (permalink)  
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In this case there was a qualified copilot at the controls
- except the 'co-pilot' was NOT qualified in that seat, which I think you will find renders it illegal? We are talking here about a senior training captain who should have known better. That is the point - we are talking about regulations - I do not believe they will be that different in India. I have no issue with 'empty seats' or any of the other stuff. Technically the 'co-pilot' was not even qualified to sit in the RHS, since when you begin a command conversion your RHS status ceases. The ONLY legal crew compliment then is TC RHS (with commode, of course). If the 'son' really needed to sit in, he should have been in the LHS.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 12:49
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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re:pt6a

pt6a wrote:
Captjns, The person left in the seat had either an Indian CPL or ALTP, neither one inspire confidence in me.

As everyone is aware they are obtained in India by "logbook flying"

PT6A
Wow, one line on pprune, you have branded all 5000 CPL /3500 ATPL Indian pilots as frauds. All the years we spent actually earning those hours instructing/ cargo flying/ regional jet / narrow body just went down the drain .PT6A , there does exist a problem but kindly refrain from gross generalizations as these.
Would you say all XZYZ pilots should be banned from flying as one of them was a fake ??? There's a word for branding everyone of a community/race/color/religion under a common group due to the misdemeanors of a few and I really don't think we want to go there.....

Let's see the positives and try to help our fledgling dynamic country build it's aviation standards up to a respectable level.I think it's possible but requires a lot of work and soul searching within .....
fly safe and masalama.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:16
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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What is the big deal?
Having the Captain's son in the co-pilots seat is no worse than having it empty!
Hell, back in pre PC days the cockpit door was open and the captain made sure the prettiest passenger with the shortest skirt jumped into the P2 seat preferably with the co-pilot still there. Well I guess that was when flying was fun and there was no fear of being "reported"
This incident is no way like the russian captain who allowed his son to take his seat!
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:24
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Would I brand all DGCA India licence holders as unsafe? Yes, based on the fact their licensing authority has been found to be incompetent, corrupt and not up to the task.

This means that the documents held by Indian flight crew become next to worthless because the actions of the DGCA.

PT6A
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:24
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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There was a qualified pilot in one of the seats at all times and it only happened during cruise.Personally,I'd sack the rat and tell the training Captain not to do it again but thats just me.I know there are a lot of pencil pushers out there in aviation who just love to get caught up in minutiae.

The DGCA needs to fry bigger fish,like making sure theres complete transparency in the way they operate and investigate accidents,that airlines have enough crews so that FTDL's arent broken,and re-thinking the no TAKEOFF/LAND policy for co-pilots because those co-pilots are second-in-command and if the Captain becomes incapacitated,they must know how to land the plane!Train the co-pilots in SOP's and AFDS operation by all means but also ensure they know how to fly the plane.It might save lives one day.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 15:39
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Personally,I'd sack the rat and tell the training Captain not to do it again but thats just me
And that engenders a responsible approach to an environment where an issue of safety is questioned, appropriately or not?

Dare question an action, face the sack... that's not a good environment for safety progression.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 18:38
  #28 (permalink)  
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- except the 'co-pilot' was NOT qualified in that seat, which I think you will find renders it illegal?
Was he not?

Then if that was the case the flight was illegal from the very start. What if none of this had happened and the Commander (in the right seat) became incapacitated?

My understanding is that the pilot in the left seat was being line-trained to complete a command course. It was a passenger carrying flight and therefore that pilot would have been type rated and have demonstraed the ability to fly from the left seat.

If the pilot in the left seat was not fully type rated and was unable to fly safely from that seat then there are bigger issues here than who was sitting in the right seat.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 18:52
  #29 (permalink)  
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Well., I'm not dragging this out '#cos I have better things to do, but I was always under the impression that you were not 'Qualified' to operate in a seat until F L Check. Up to that point the crew constitution should be TC RHS, not a bare-bones CPL. You have introduced
If the pilot in the left seat was not fully type rated and was unable to fly safely from that seat then there are bigger issues here than who was sitting in the right seat.
, not me, which is somewhat irrelevant!
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 22:59
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Well - it's all quite simple really.

India is CORRUPT! For all of you PC do-gooders; just go and spend 24 hours there

Any decent Indian pilot is flying elsewhere - some of them here at EK and I have to say these are great guys, great pilots and great fun... The dross is what we're talking about here in these forums, about fake hours and so on - but DGCA must take action

As for this thread - if you are NOT qualified to sit in a pilot's seat then STAY OUT of it. Any so-called TRI/TRE who does otherwise should be keel-hauled (old English sea-farers punishment)...
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 07:30
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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PT6A get a life son.
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 10:43
  #32 (permalink)  
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but I was always under the impression that you were not 'Qualified' to operate in a seat until F L Check.
Fare paying passengers can not be carried on training flights.

On a training flight the instructor has to hold an appropriate rating i.e. TRI / TRE.

Line training using Training Captains who are not TRIs or TREs with fare paying passengers onboard can only be done if the pilot being "trained" is legally qualified to fly the aircraft in that situation.

A multi crew aircraft must have two qualified pilots. If we follow your line then we can never do line training with passengers on board.

Finally, in your airline, what is the procedure for a training Captain who needs a physiological break while line training an experienced (but not line cheked) FO?
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 11:14
  #33 (permalink)  
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Fare paying passengers can not be carried on training flights.
Incorrect, line training??

On a training flight the instructor has to hold an appropriate rating i.e. TRI / TRE.
What about line trainers without TRI/TRE?

Line training using Training Captains who are not TRIs or TREs with fare paying passengers onboard can only be done if the pilot being "trained" is legally qualified to fly the aircraft in that situation.
When does somebody become legally qualified? Once they have finished their line training?

Or are we saying that this flight wasn't line training but was base training?
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 12:54
  #34 (permalink)  
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Finally, in your airline, what is the procedure for a training Captain who needs a physiological break while line training an experienced (but not line cheked) FO?
- refer post #22 - the answer begins with c and ends with e
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 14:58
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Seen both cabin crew in the RHS and on the skipper's knee flying the aircraft in a famous European carrier. Nothing new except in this case the skipper was probably sober.
Keep the door shut next time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 15:12
  #36 (permalink)  
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Indeed, Blind Pew - I suspect Captain Singh may have already been on a 'target list'? If only he had exercised some common sense and put his son in the LHS for the three sectors I suspect this thread might not have happened,
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 18:15
  #37 (permalink)  
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Incorrect, line training??


What about line trainers without TRI/TRE?


When does somebody become legally qualified? Once they have finished their line training?

Line training is an internal company process (essential though). That trains a qualified pilot in the company procedures and enables the pilot practice what they have learned under the supervision of a more experienced Captain.

Line trainers are not providing any training towards a licence, rating or to a pilot who does not have the required take-off and landings in the previous 90 days.

The pilot is licensed to fly the aircraft and act as a member of a crew as soon as they get the rating on their licence.

The company usually is a bity more cautious and limits them to flying with a line trainer until they pass their line check. Some companies still restrict pilots who have just passed their first line check to flying with the more experienced people who sit in the other seat.

What you have to rememebr is that there are many cases where there will just be two crew on an aircraft that requires two crew and for example the FO may not have passed their line check. In this case the Capt will at least be a line training Captain. In that case what happens when the Captain needs a physiological break during the say 8 hour cruise? What if they think they can't leave the seat and as a result become incapacitated?

One of the best examples I can think of is the good old 3 take-off and landings in 90 days. Most companies have more strict requirements. If the other pilot is within the 90 days but outside the company requirement they can fly with a line training Captain. As soon as they pass the 90 days then they are no longer legal unless they can (between 90 and 120 days) fly with a TRI on a revenue flight.
Beyond the 120 days they have to either go to the sim or fly the aircraft empty.
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 18:30
  #38 (permalink)  
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In that case what happens when the Captain needs a physiological break during the say 8 hour cruise? What if they think they can't leave the seat and as a result become incapacitated?
- then they would be big plonkers, Rodney, who had not read the Ops Manual. This 'need' is covered (in my experience anyway) - and STRICTLY controlled - by company Ops Manuals. What these manuals do NOT 'cover' or 'control' is placing an unqualified pilot in your seat and 'flying' (as part of the constituted crew) from the jump seat! (Well, mine never did, anyway?)
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 18:35
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Come on now... how many of you have gone to the biffy an return to the cockpit to find the cabin crew member occupying your seat? Any pilot who remained in the cockpit get turned in for that?
That is exactly what happened to a good friend of mine, an experienced Captain with a major UK airline, thirteen months after the event happened. (He had allowed one of the cabin crew to occupy the FO's seat for a couple of minutes while the FO had gone to the toilet. Simply that.)

Mind you it was just after 9/11 when he was called to the office, when they were using any method they could to reduce pilot numbers.

I believe that the individual who reported the event got his upgrade some months afterwards. Nice.
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Old 26th Dec 2010, 21:47
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Keep in mind...generally speaking, the best and safest way to fly in India...is in the flight levels, flying over.
Always has been, always will be.
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