Airbus prepares safety warnings following A321 incident
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Unhooked
I recall hearing about an incident with a A340 out of MRU where the AOA vane was damaged in the stand and went unnoticed or unreported. After take-off the aircraft was receiving erroneous AOA info and the more the PF attempted to increase pitch the more progressively the flight computers lowered the nose as the false AOA data was being received. I think the fast thinking commander switched off some of the PRIM's & SEC's (primary and secondary flight computers) and managed to return in direct law.
A single damaged AoA probe is not supposed to do that ... ?
In the meantime it is true that a single dysfunctional ADIRU did the mess it did on QF72 !
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: usa
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B737 rolling over? Is this in reference to the crash near Pittsburgh or Colorado Springs? If Pittsburgh I seem to recall that the flying pilot did not dis-connect the auto-pilot but left it in CWS.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Read here for some informations regarding the B737 rudder rollovers: The Rudder Story
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: France
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to give credit, I think. It is DARK at 0200 in the morning, just north of Khartoum at Fl360, Comms are not easy with either KRT or CAI. These guys were in the middle of a 3 day rotation in the middle of the circadiam low. I know , I've been there. I think this crew handled this in a cool and collected manner without loosing control , resolving the problem and making great decisions. Clearly not such a catastrophic event as some above would say or they would have ended up in Cairo not Beirut! I am sure appropriate guidance will follow. Well Done Guys.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PTH
regarding the 737 rollover...at least there is a procedure for dealing with it in a mechanical fashion.
one can also use assymetric thrust to deal with it...relatively easy
so, is the airbus procedure, start writing NEW CODE and enter it into the computer?
I don't care for the 737, but I flew it.
I hate the Airbus and didn't fly it, even though I would have earned more money.
what a POS!
one can also use assymetric thrust to deal with it...relatively easy
so, is the airbus procedure, start writing NEW CODE and enter it into the computer?
I don't care for the 737, but I flew it.
I hate the Airbus and didn't fly it, even though I would have earned more money.
what a POS!
Why 'hate' an aeroplane you've never flown? That's a rhetorical question by the way as I know the answer!!!!
You Are An Idiot
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe all of us don't want to experience the bad results others have experienced first hand. My friend had an out of control A300 trying to land at MIA with uncommanded rudder movements. He knew they were going to crash but not exactly sure where. Then the AA587 crash in New York in 01 that got blamed on the FO using too agressive rudder movements for some strange reason. Airbus probably had a lot of input in that investigation. Recently the A380 and A321 with the massive electrical faults. No, I elected for the smaller paycheck to fly an airplane I trusted. If you trust the Airbus, go for it. I chose not to. I never felt like an idiot for what I did with no personal experience. I learned from other people's experiences rather than verifying it for myself.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbus gremlins.
Wonder how many have noticed that a certain aircraft type name is an almost perfect anagram of HUBRIS. Nearer perfect if you consider "H" is English pronounced "Aitch". The gods on Olympus will be laughing again.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbus gremlins.
Wonder how many have noticed that a certain aircraft type name is an almost perfect anagram of HUBRIS. Nearer perfect if you consider "H" is English pronounced "Aitch". The gods on Olympus will be laughing again.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perspective?
Once upon a time, a USN F-4 experienced an electrical fire in the rear cockpit behind the C/B panels. The resulting arcing and sparking caused the AFCS (Stability Augmentation Portion) to experience intermittent electric power. The GIF (Guy in Front) experienced continuous transient control inputs as power was applied and removed from the AFCS. These inputs (and probably the smoke too) panicked him to such an extent that he promptly ejected out of an otherwise good flying machine without first addressing the electrical aspects of the rear cockpit fire. The GIB was also forced to eject since he had no controls in that cockpit.
Now this was an aircraft with essentially direct mechanical connection to the flight control hydraulic cylinders (The stab aug had limited control authority.)
Now forward to the 21st century. An AB aircraft experiences intermittent electrical power from a generator and that situation so confuses the electrical system that essential equipment is not continuously supplied with electrical power. The warning system itself (ECAM) has intermittant power and is continually being reset thus it doesn't settle down to display a clear warning message. Fortunately a clear warning message finally drifts across the screen and the crew responds and shuts down the left generator which begins the resolution of their problems.
But suppose the ECAM never settled down? How would this crew have addressed the problem then? Perhaps some memory item procedures are needed. If essential electrical systems are not continuously powered, does this still meet certification guidelines? Suppose a similar problem cropped up at rotation or on final.
And before all the B guys get too smug, ask yourselves what would happen in your machine if critical displays and systems continually were shuttled between busses by an intermittent electrical problem?
Now this was an aircraft with essentially direct mechanical connection to the flight control hydraulic cylinders (The stab aug had limited control authority.)
Now forward to the 21st century. An AB aircraft experiences intermittent electrical power from a generator and that situation so confuses the electrical system that essential equipment is not continuously supplied with electrical power. The warning system itself (ECAM) has intermittant power and is continually being reset thus it doesn't settle down to display a clear warning message. Fortunately a clear warning message finally drifts across the screen and the crew responds and shuts down the left generator which begins the resolution of their problems.
But suppose the ECAM never settled down? How would this crew have addressed the problem then? Perhaps some memory item procedures are needed. If essential electrical systems are not continuously powered, does this still meet certification guidelines? Suppose a similar problem cropped up at rotation or on final.
And before all the B guys get too smug, ask yourselves what would happen in your machine if critical displays and systems continually were shuttled between busses by an intermittent electrical problem?
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Machinbird -
And before all the B guys get too smug, ask yourselves what would happen in your machine if critical displays and systems continually were shuttled between busses by an intermittent electrical problem?
And before all the B guys get too smug, ask yourselves what would happen in your machine if critical displays and systems continually were shuttled between busses by an intermittent electrical problem?
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
White Knight...of course those tragedies happened and that is why we now train how to handle them. I am not an idiot...except for picking an airline that picked airbus...that I will admit.
DC ATE...thanks pal. Anyone who has every flown a douglas understands the sheer simplicity, and therefore elegance of systems. One of the great designers there had the word KISS on his wall...keep it simple, stupid!
Let's face it, the wizardry of the airbus helps for fuel efficency and a lighter structure.
Give me a heavier plane that doesn't break so badly if properly maintained.
I feel sorry for the airbus button pushers...they may levitate, but they ain't flying.
DC ATE...thanks pal. Anyone who has every flown a douglas understands the sheer simplicity, and therefore elegance of systems. One of the great designers there had the word KISS on his wall...keep it simple, stupid!
Let's face it, the wizardry of the airbus helps for fuel efficency and a lighter structure.
Give me a heavier plane that doesn't break so badly if properly maintained.
I feel sorry for the airbus button pushers...they may levitate, but they ain't flying.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I've said a few times on here: I'm just glad I'm out of this racket and don't have to worry 'bout it any more. I don't even fly any more !! Trains, boats, autos are good enough for me.
Good luck to all that have to put up with all this "automation".
Good luck to all that have to put up with all this "automation".
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didn't get in the crazy automation era but still felt it coming. Guess we were lucky to get out when we did. I didn't have to put up with the Airbus mentality of flying. Computers are great if they are right. Not so great if they are wrong. Maybe I am just old fashioned. My first airplane didn't have a battery in it. My biggest aviation problem was finding somebody to prop me.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SoCalif
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
History
And before all the B guys get too smug, ask yourselves what would happen in your machine if critical displays and systems continually were shuttled between busses by an intermittent electrical problem?
Well designed systems will accommodate intermittents that would cause cumulative errors in less robustly designed systems. A/B will figure it out and fix it, retrofitting the robustness should have been there in the beginning.
GB
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blanking screens has happened before on the A320 in the 90's. That was due to an over zealous pilot inserting too many possible alternates and overloading the computer memory. It didn't happen to the rest of us because we were aware that it was a possibility and didn't push our luck.
It is also important to use common sense, even on an Airbus. The manual doesn't cover all fault scenarios as has already been mentioned. I remember an A320 having a wing tip brake come on where the ECAM assumed an assymetric flap condition. In fact the flap had locked at flap full but the ECAM instructed to put the flap switch to flap 3. This resulted in overcontrolling by the pilot and a difficult landing.
I had the same fault at my next simulator check. The flap on the controls page showed it was in full but amber. I landed normally with the switch at full and wondered what the problem was supposed to be. Only then was I told that what I was given was what had happened for real, but the crew had pedantically followed the ECAM message. Even my F/O in the simulator was trying to point out my incorrect procedure because I wasn't following the ECAM message.
It would seem that some would just follow the 'correct procedure' without using common sense even if there is no correct procedure for the actual condition present at the time or they have misdiagnosed the condition.
It is also important to use common sense, even on an Airbus. The manual doesn't cover all fault scenarios as has already been mentioned. I remember an A320 having a wing tip brake come on where the ECAM assumed an assymetric flap condition. In fact the flap had locked at flap full but the ECAM instructed to put the flap switch to flap 3. This resulted in overcontrolling by the pilot and a difficult landing.
I had the same fault at my next simulator check. The flap on the controls page showed it was in full but amber. I landed normally with the switch at full and wondered what the problem was supposed to be. Only then was I told that what I was given was what had happened for real, but the crew had pedantically followed the ECAM message. Even my F/O in the simulator was trying to point out my incorrect procedure because I wasn't following the ECAM message.
It would seem that some would just follow the 'correct procedure' without using common sense even if there is no correct procedure for the actual condition present at the time or they have misdiagnosed the condition.
It's not the first time Airbus electrics have thrown a tantrum. AAIB reports on G -EUOB and G-EZAC incidents are IMHO compulsory reading material for any aspiring or current bus driver.
Basics of all three incidents are simple: E in EFIS & ECAM stands for electronic and electronics needs proper electricity to work. If a bunch of screens go crazy your problem is a) electric b) likely to affect ECAM, don't expect it to work as advertized or at all.
So how do we solve problem of ECAM-junkies at the time of ECAM going on vacation? We can introduce memory item like : LOOK UP! Yes, as A320 pilot one is free to look at overhead panel even if ECAM doesn't direct him to do so. Chances are there will be some or other Pb glowing amber and pushing it might solve a problem. Wait a sec here! Don't just push it mindlessly, take a look, read what's written on it, recall what it does and what will be the consequences. Simple, really. Or not, if you learnt the systems by rote to pass the exam. Then it's really tough times ahead for you bro.
Regarding the Magic Bus and today's pilots: that Airbus is crash-proof and can cope with less skilled pilot than standard is misperception, promulgation of which is the fault of Airbus propaganda department, not the fellows who designed the Airbi. Woe to the airline whose training department takes this sales pitch to be true. Compared with a couple of decades ago, modern pilot has replaced: pilot, flight engineer, radio operator and navigator. Creating better and easier to operate systems was meant to decrease workload. It succeeded yet the intention was not to make life in cockpit easier: it was to reduce workforce as much as possible. It is all fine and well as long our electronic little helpers do their work. When they pack up, you have two people doing the job that was historically split between 4 to 6.
Basics of all three incidents are simple: E in EFIS & ECAM stands for electronic and electronics needs proper electricity to work. If a bunch of screens go crazy your problem is a) electric b) likely to affect ECAM, don't expect it to work as advertized or at all.
So how do we solve problem of ECAM-junkies at the time of ECAM going on vacation? We can introduce memory item like : LOOK UP! Yes, as A320 pilot one is free to look at overhead panel even if ECAM doesn't direct him to do so. Chances are there will be some or other Pb glowing amber and pushing it might solve a problem. Wait a sec here! Don't just push it mindlessly, take a look, read what's written on it, recall what it does and what will be the consequences. Simple, really. Or not, if you learnt the systems by rote to pass the exam. Then it's really tough times ahead for you bro.
Regarding the Magic Bus and today's pilots: that Airbus is crash-proof and can cope with less skilled pilot than standard is misperception, promulgation of which is the fault of Airbus propaganda department, not the fellows who designed the Airbi. Woe to the airline whose training department takes this sales pitch to be true. Compared with a couple of decades ago, modern pilot has replaced: pilot, flight engineer, radio operator and navigator. Creating better and easier to operate systems was meant to decrease workload. It succeeded yet the intention was not to make life in cockpit easier: it was to reduce workforce as much as possible. It is all fine and well as long our electronic little helpers do their work. When they pack up, you have two people doing the job that was historically split between 4 to 6.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Age: 74
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
before all the B guys get too smug, ask yourselves what would happen in your machine if critical displays and systems continually were shuttled between busses by an intermittent electrical problem?
Anyway a two week old example arrived here with the following defects.
Galley power repeatedly switched itself off
Lighting system flickering, cabin and cockpit.
Flight Recorder OFF light intermittent ON.
EFIS and FMC dumped all info and L Nav and A/Thrott disconnected, Track disappeared from EFIS
Pressurisation problem felt but no warnings
Then nbr 1 eng gen bus off light on, and all back to normal.
BA soldiered on with the VSCF for many years, but finally gave up and converted to IDGs.
Whilst we're praising Douglas, I suppose we won't mention about Cargo Doors blowing out or flipping on their backs on landing every so often.
No aeroplane is perfect.....4500 A32X family aircraft later, they're certainly no POS - and if you're asking 'what's it goi ng to do next' - I suggest you don't understand the machine.
No aeroplane is perfect.....4500 A32X family aircraft later, they're certainly no POS - and if you're asking 'what's it goi ng to do next' - I suggest you don't understand the machine.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by clandestino
Regarding the Magic Bus and today's pilots: that Airbus is crash-proof and can cope with less skilled pilot than standard is misperception, promulgation of which is the fault of Airbus propaganda department, not the fellows who designed the Airbi.