Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure
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Risking that this has been said before...
.. in other threads and with other incidents, but I find it annoying that the CVR should have been partially overwritten, losing investigators the chance to examine the actual incident itself.
On an aircraft which has a potential endurance of - what - 14 hours? - I am simply not able to understand why the CVR should overwrite critical data "because engine no1 could not be shut down until a few hours after the incident"
My IPhone is capable of recording a few MONTHS of CVR data.
-edit- or was this related to the electrical failures in some way?
regards,
On an aircraft which has a potential endurance of - what - 14 hours? - I am simply not able to understand why the CVR should overwrite critical data "because engine no1 could not be shut down until a few hours after the incident"
My IPhone is capable of recording a few MONTHS of CVR data.
-edit- or was this related to the electrical failures in some way?
regards,
Last edited by OutOfRunWay; 15th Nov 2010 at 08:50.
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In this age, its very strange why its not mandatory to have a CVR that records days of data digitally on some form of flash memory.
However in this incident where the crew can tell the story and the FDR will show what they were doing, its not going to really provide the investigation any additional details.
However in this incident where the crew can tell the story and the FDR will show what they were doing, its not going to really provide the investigation any additional details.
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gordon,
true only to a certain extent. Human memory is a subejctive thing. Ask four pilots and you will get four slightly (or even significantly) different versions of the same event.
Modern CVRs are digital and record onto heat- and shockresistant solid state devices. Its just that appearantly there is still not enough space available. (In a quick search around google, I was not able to find what CVRs Qantas' A380s are fitted with)
regards.
true only to a certain extent. Human memory is a subejctive thing. Ask four pilots and you will get four slightly (or even significantly) different versions of the same event.
Modern CVRs are digital and record onto heat- and shockresistant solid state devices. Its just that appearantly there is still not enough space available. (In a quick search around google, I was not able to find what CVRs Qantas' A380s are fitted with)
regards.
StrongEagle mentioned:
For fun, I want to compute the energy of an IP disc at full throttle... something like 8,000 RPM at max rotor speeds. But, I have not been able to find any information as to the approximate diameter and mass of an IP disc throttle for this engine, making the exercise somewhat difficult.
Does anyone have approximate values for these parameters?
For fun, I want to compute the energy of an IP disc at full throttle... something like 8,000 RPM at max rotor speeds. But, I have not been able to find any information as to the approximate diameter and mass of an IP disc throttle for this engine, making the exercise somewhat difficult.
Does anyone have approximate values for these parameters?
Made of steel alloy, density 7 g/cc (or tonnes/m^3)
Uniform disk 1cm in thickness
From the pick up truck photos and the RR slides seems to be about 1m in diameter.
My guess is that the value obtained might be within a factor of 3 or so of the true value. Others have already suggested that the energy might be compared to a car at motorway speeds (or a 4kg anti-aircraft projectile at 2000ft/sec (mach 2 ish)).
Please post the results
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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any info yet on whether this will be a hull loss?
Look at some of the aircraft that Boeing have put back together and have flown again, for example, TMA Freighter Boeing 747 at Athens, which broke in half, Air France B747 severely damaged at Delhi but was flown out after repair.
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Parra - you say my beloved Boeing!! (No, I am not being nasty about Airbus) - however the wing manufature process is pretty intricate as there is a big difference - open metal 'carving' vs. aluminium panels on the Boeings (787 excluded).
The process, which has been posted before, is on a YouTube.
Your thoughts?
Chardster.
The process, which has been posted before, is on a YouTube.
Your thoughts?
Chardster.
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RR Bearing chamber lubrication patent - WARNING - heavy reading
For a very technical description and some of the evolution of the RR bearing chamber lubrication and fires risks see their patent 6516618 Gas-turbine engine with a bearing chamber
FF
FF
I wouldn't be so sure about a 'new wing'. I don't believe Airbus has ever replaced a complete wing of an in-service aircraft, either in the field or at TLS.
Whilst technically feasible it's obviously a 'cost' thing, and assuming the wing damage rules out a ferry flight then performing such a repair at SIN adds yet another (large?) factor to the estimate!
Whilst technically feasible it's obviously a 'cost' thing, and assuming the wing damage rules out a ferry flight then performing such a repair at SIN adds yet another (large?) factor to the estimate!
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Disk energies
There was a bit of discussion of this, as alluded to above, at
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/43276...ml#post6049727.
I guessed values that were tweaked by others on that thread.
For the updated values of a 75kg, 1.1-m diameter disk at 10,000 rpm, kinetic energy is up to 8MJ (same as a 15-ton truck at 70mph). The shafts have a small contribution - it's the wide-radius parts that dominate.
The fan is heavier and bigger, and so makes a greater contribution to the energy of rotation in the engine [dependent on mass * (radius * angular speed)**2]. Assuming four times the mass, twice the radius, and a third of the speed, the fan would have about twice the rotational kinetic energy of a turbine disk.
The fan is even more dominant in the gyroscopic effect [dependent on angular momentum, scaling as (mass * radius**2 * angular speed)], exceeding the contribution of the turbine disks by a factor of 5. As ChristiaanJ says above, gas-flow efficiency considerations are probably the most important for deciding on contrarotating IP and HP sections, not reducing the fan-dominated gyroscope effect.
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/43276...ml#post6049727.
I guessed values that were tweaked by others on that thread.
For the updated values of a 75kg, 1.1-m diameter disk at 10,000 rpm, kinetic energy is up to 8MJ (same as a 15-ton truck at 70mph). The shafts have a small contribution - it's the wide-radius parts that dominate.
The fan is heavier and bigger, and so makes a greater contribution to the energy of rotation in the engine [dependent on mass * (radius * angular speed)**2]. Assuming four times the mass, twice the radius, and a third of the speed, the fan would have about twice the rotational kinetic energy of a turbine disk.
The fan is even more dominant in the gyroscopic effect [dependent on angular momentum, scaling as (mass * radius**2 * angular speed)], exceeding the contribution of the turbine disks by a factor of 5. As ChristiaanJ says above, gas-flow efficiency considerations are probably the most important for deciding on contrarotating IP and HP sections, not reducing the fan-dominated gyroscope effect.
to the flight deck for getting her down.Do a Hover - it avoids G
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From AvWeb today
Qantas A380 Was Heavily Damaged
The Qantas crew whose A380 suffered an uncontained engine failure earlier this month had their hands full in getting the super jumbo back to Singapore. Shrapnel from the engine disabled one of two main hydraulic systems, hampered the fuel transfer system, punched a hole in the forward wing spar and caused a major fuel leak. The cascading nature of such failures meant the pilots couldn't dump enough fuel to bring the aircraft down to its maximum landing weight and the fuel left in the airplane was unbalanced. Flaps, slats and spoilers couldn't be fully deployed and the gear had to be dropped manually. Once it was on the ground, the anti-lock brakes didn't work and, since the damaged engine was an inboard one, there was only one left for reverse thrust (the outboard engines of A380s don't have reversers because they often overhang the grass and might be FOD damaged). The heavy, significantly disabled aircraft needed virtually all of the 13,123 feet of available runway. The whole wing might have to be replaced and the aircraft is expected to be out of commission for months. Meanwhile, the cause of the engine problem has been determined and it's just adding to the PR problems facing manufacturer Rolls-Royce.
According to the Courier Mail, newer versions of the Trent 900 engine installed in aircraft built after the Qantas jet in question had redesigned bearing boxes to prevent the oil leaks that resulted in the engine explosion. Airbus sales chief John Leahy told the paper he wasn't sure if the three airlines that chose the Trent for their A380s, Qantas, Singapore and Lufthansa, knew about the changes and which engines had been upgraded. Other A380 buyers chose the Engine Alliance GP7000.
Qantas A380 Was Heavily Damaged
The Qantas crew whose A380 suffered an uncontained engine failure earlier this month had their hands full in getting the super jumbo back to Singapore. Shrapnel from the engine disabled one of two main hydraulic systems, hampered the fuel transfer system, punched a hole in the forward wing spar and caused a major fuel leak. The cascading nature of such failures meant the pilots couldn't dump enough fuel to bring the aircraft down to its maximum landing weight and the fuel left in the airplane was unbalanced. Flaps, slats and spoilers couldn't be fully deployed and the gear had to be dropped manually. Once it was on the ground, the anti-lock brakes didn't work and, since the damaged engine was an inboard one, there was only one left for reverse thrust (the outboard engines of A380s don't have reversers because they often overhang the grass and might be FOD damaged). The heavy, significantly disabled aircraft needed virtually all of the 13,123 feet of available runway. The whole wing might have to be replaced and the aircraft is expected to be out of commission for months. Meanwhile, the cause of the engine problem has been determined and it's just adding to the PR problems facing manufacturer Rolls-Royce.
According to the Courier Mail, newer versions of the Trent 900 engine installed in aircraft built after the Qantas jet in question had redesigned bearing boxes to prevent the oil leaks that resulted in the engine explosion. Airbus sales chief John Leahy told the paper he wasn't sure if the three airlines that chose the Trent for their A380s, Qantas, Singapore and Lufthansa, knew about the changes and which engines had been upgraded. Other A380 buyers chose the Engine Alliance GP7000.
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Nov 15, 9:40 AM EST
Officials tells AP Rolls-Royce to temporarily replace its leaking engines on largest jetliner
By MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN
Associated Press
LONDON (AP) -- An aviation regulator tells The Associated Press that Rolls-Royce will temporarily replace entire engines suffering from oil leaks on the world's largest jetliner.
The official says the British engine-maker will take off faulty engines and replace them with new ones. It will then fix the leaking part and swap the engine back again.
The official, who has been briefed by Rolls-Royce and some of the affected airlines, spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. Rolls-Royce declined to comment.
Leaking oil caught fire on Nov. 4 in one of a Qantas A380's four engines, sending chunks of metal into vital systems in the wing before it landed safely. Qantas has said checks revealed leaks in at least three other engines.
Officials tells AP Rolls-Royce to temporarily replace its leaking engines on largest jetliner
By MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN
Associated Press
LONDON (AP) -- An aviation regulator tells The Associated Press that Rolls-Royce will temporarily replace entire engines suffering from oil leaks on the world's largest jetliner.
The official says the British engine-maker will take off faulty engines and replace them with new ones. It will then fix the leaking part and swap the engine back again.
The official, who has been briefed by Rolls-Royce and some of the affected airlines, spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. Rolls-Royce declined to comment.
Leaking oil caught fire on Nov. 4 in one of a Qantas A380's four engines, sending chunks of metal into vital systems in the wing before it landed safely. Qantas has said checks revealed leaks in at least three other engines.
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If I read the article mentioned by John Farley it gives me the creeps.
Let me repeat my post from November 6, I'd like to uphold it even more fervently after such news .....
Let me repeat my post from November 6, I'd like to uphold it even more fervently after such news .....
To me the crew might have been very professional, at least the modern electronic way. But at the same time they must have been very, very lucky.
I'd rather be a little less proficient in handling ECAM, QRH, FCOM, bulletins and all that papaer cr@p and get my plane down as fast as possible.
I'd rather let the engineers and office-seat-cushion-warmer-pilots, as well as all their lawyers admonish me later that handling ECAM No49 according to bulletin No3458, paragraph 2, article 75 would have made their work to cover their asses a little easier, therefore they would dismiss me and sacrifice me as the sole responsible for this failure, rather than flying 2 hours with a badly hurt aircraft of which you have no idea what has been damaged in addition to the exploded donkey, the one that has just quit obeying your orders and some hydraulic driven devices that do no longer function!
I guess after realising and reflecting on the state of his plane, the captain will send a prayer or two to whoever he worships for the lucky escape and next time will do a very quick return!
I'd rather be a little less proficient in handling ECAM, QRH, FCOM, bulletins and all that papaer cr@p and get my plane down as fast as possible.
I'd rather let the engineers and office-seat-cushion-warmer-pilots, as well as all their lawyers admonish me later that handling ECAM No49 according to bulletin No3458, paragraph 2, article 75 would have made their work to cover their asses a little easier, therefore they would dismiss me and sacrifice me as the sole responsible for this failure, rather than flying 2 hours with a badly hurt aircraft of which you have no idea what has been damaged in addition to the exploded donkey, the one that has just quit obeying your orders and some hydraulic driven devices that do no longer function!
I guess after realising and reflecting on the state of his plane, the captain will send a prayer or two to whoever he worships for the lucky escape and next time will do a very quick return!
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`shock horror` reporting again - neeed the entire runway? must be darn convienient to need all the runway then arrive at the end to find all the waiting emergency services parked there ready for you....
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Oh Jack, you are a one. You're telling us that 'the heavy, significantly disabled aircraft' landed and then taxied up the runway to the waiting fire trucks. Is this so?
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Gretchenfrage
which is where we'll disagree 
The Final Report will be very interesting. There is no requirement to
- but the prime factor in Emergency Handling is often time management, and rarely (and almost certainly not here)
As posted above, certain events did time add pressure to these guys (increasing lateral imbalance?), and they had to judge when that consideration overrode reducing AUW and gaining, as far as possible, a better understanding / briefing of the approach.
How can one say that? Maybe they were "very very unlucky" in how/where the damage occurred/interracted? And as I posted above, it would be interesting to know how "close" they were to a critical failure i.e. were they ever one (further) system failure from a catastrophic outcome?
I somewhat doubt it 
NoD
I'd rather be a little less proficient in handling ECAM, QRH, FCOM, bulletins and all that papaer cr@p and get my plane down as fast as possible.
The Final Report will be very interesting. There is no requirement to
that handling ECAM No49 according to bulletin No3458, paragraph 2, article 75
get my plane down as fast as possible
But at the same time they must have been very, very lucky.
the captain will send a prayer or two to whoever he worships for the lucky escape and next time will do a very quick return!
NoD
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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I presume that the airlines will be swapping serviceable engines between aircraft to minimise the number of aircraft kept on the ground. On that basis the problem could be manageable.