Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure
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Edited excerpts from the Wall Street Journal:
Rolls-Royce said today it is "closing in on understanding why one of its engines on a Qantas.A380 blew apart last week”, and is making fixes that will allow QF to return the jets to service.
"It is now clear this incident is specific to the Trent 900 engine," and checks are now being completed that will allow the aircraft to resume operations "in full compliance with all safety standards".
The article reported that the Trent 900 is designed to deliver between 70,000 and 80,000 pounds of thrust. While the engines on all three of the three airlines that use it are physically identical, the control computers on LH and SQ are set at 70,000 pounds, while QF’s are set at 72,000 pounds, This is due the average length of QF A380 flights being longer requiring more fuel and more thrust at TO. This difference might be a contributing factor, but the difference in thrust alone wouldn't explain the engine failure.
Rolls-Royce said today it is "closing in on understanding why one of its engines on a Qantas.A380 blew apart last week”, and is making fixes that will allow QF to return the jets to service.
"It is now clear this incident is specific to the Trent 900 engine," and checks are now being completed that will allow the aircraft to resume operations "in full compliance with all safety standards".
The article reported that the Trent 900 is designed to deliver between 70,000 and 80,000 pounds of thrust. While the engines on all three of the three airlines that use it are physically identical, the control computers on LH and SQ are set at 70,000 pounds, while QF’s are set at 72,000 pounds, This is due the average length of QF A380 flights being longer requiring more fuel and more thrust at TO. This difference might be a contributing factor, but the difference in thrust alone wouldn't explain the engine failure.
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Photo from Teddy Robinson
At post #629,
I have been looking more closely at the image of the part on the trolley. (post 588) I have inverted it and shifted the colour markers with this result. Centre right of image there is a rounded star shape, right next to the line marked on the disc.
A witness mark from something adjacent ? to me it looks like the shape found in an oil pump, and beyond the mark itself a discoloured area.
............
From an engineering perspective this is way beyond my field of expertise, but as seen previously there is a wealth of eng. experience on this forum ... any ideas ? or just a co-incidence ?
TR
A witness mark from something adjacent ? to me it looks like the shape found in an oil pump, and beyond the mark itself a discoloured area.
............
From an engineering perspective this is way beyond my field of expertise, but as seen previously there is a wealth of eng. experience on this forum ... any ideas ? or just a co-incidence ?
TR
OverRun
The part you show is a spinning disk that would average the effects of heat tinting over 360 deg.
The best you could do with a photo is to compare the colorations with a normal disk for hints that excessive heat was involved. At this time it's a moot point since the investigation has had time to move beyond this question.
I have been looking more closely at the image of the part on the trolley. (post 588) I have inverted it and shifted the colour markers with this result. Centre right of image there is a rounded star shape, right next to the line marked on the disc.
A witness mark from something adjacent ? to me it looks like the shape found in an oil pump, and beyond the mark itself a discoloured area.
A witness mark from something adjacent ? to me it looks like the shape found in an oil pump, and beyond the mark itself a discoloured area.
The part you show is a spinning disk that would average the effects of heat tinting over 360 deg.
The best you could do with a photo is to compare the colorations with a normal disk for hints that excessive heat was involved. At this time it's a moot point since the investigation has had time to move beyond this question.
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Hi,
This difference might be a contributing factor ????
Designed .. so certified ! (EASA certification in 2004)
So QF use the engine as certified .. no probs ... for QF 
The article reported that the Trent 900 is designed to deliver between 70,000 and 80,000 pounds of thrust. While the engines on all three of the three airlines that use it are physically identical, the control computers on LH and SQ are set at 70,000 pounds, while QF’s are set at 72,000 pounds, This is due the average length of QF A380 flights being longer requiring more fuel and more thrust at TO. This difference might be a contributing factor, but the difference in thrust alone wouldn't explain the engine failure.
Designed .. so certified ! (EASA certification in 2004)
on LH and SQ are set at 70,000 pounds, while QF’s are set at 72,000 pounds
Some more info on the LAX-MEL sector as operated by the A380:
QF A380s almost always use Runway 24L to depart KLAX, simply because getting them over to the southern complex (25L/R) is a logistical nightmare.
This runway is approximately 1800ft (roughly 600m) shorter than 25R, which the majority of heavy departures use at KLAX. Also, it is not uncommon for 5kts of tailwind for late-night departures.
Yet another reason the Trents may be regularly operating at a very high thrust setting for this specific departure.
QF A380s almost always use Runway 24L to depart KLAX, simply because getting them over to the southern complex (25L/R) is a logistical nightmare.
This runway is approximately 1800ft (roughly 600m) shorter than 25R, which the majority of heavy departures use at KLAX. Also, it is not uncommon for 5kts of tailwind for late-night departures.
Yet another reason the Trents may be regularly operating at a very high thrust setting for this specific departure.
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Further to Post #173:
Stockmarket report (Money Morning report 9th Nov., referring to 8th Nov.):
The day's biggest faller was Rolls Royce, which lost 4.9% after concern about its engines on the Airbus A380.
Stockmarket report (Money Morning report 9th Nov., referring to 8th Nov.):
The day's biggest faller was Rolls Royce, which lost 4.9% after concern about its engines on the Airbus A380.
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Thanks to Overun
for posting the image on my behalf,
lomapaseo, thank you for your comment as well, these are things I am not properly aquainted with hence I asked the question.
Point taken with regard to the discoloured area itself, what intrigued me was the orderly pattern of what I perhaps mistakenly refer to as a witness mark, to me it appears that something was there to create such a well ordered pattern, that's why I asked if that "shape" is something that somebody recognises as being the outline of a component, and if so what ?
It could well be that is comes from nothing more than an object that the part ran into on it's way out of the conflagration, or, it may be pertinant to the sequence of events, that isn't for me to comment on .. apart from ... any ideas what we might be looking at here ?
TR
lomapaseo, thank you for your comment as well, these are things I am not properly aquainted with hence I asked the question.
Point taken with regard to the discoloured area itself, what intrigued me was the orderly pattern of what I perhaps mistakenly refer to as a witness mark, to me it appears that something was there to create such a well ordered pattern, that's why I asked if that "shape" is something that somebody recognises as being the outline of a component, and if so what ?
It could well be that is comes from nothing more than an object that the part ran into on it's way out of the conflagration, or, it may be pertinant to the sequence of events, that isn't for me to comment on .. apart from ... any ideas what we might be looking at here ?
TR
pct085
QF introduced the B747-400ER around 8 years ago especially for the MEL-LAX-MEL route. QF purchased 6 of the type and are the only operator.
The differences between the 400ER and the 400 include greater fuel capacity, a higher T/O weight (19+ tonnes) and more powerful engines.
The model was optimised by Boeing especially for LAX-MEL
QF introduced the B747-400ER around 8 years ago especially for the MEL-LAX-MEL route. QF purchased 6 of the type and are the only operator.
The differences between the 400ER and the 400 include greater fuel capacity, a higher T/O weight (19+ tonnes) and more powerful engines.
The model was optimised by Boeing especially for LAX-MEL
Believe I'm right in saying the -400ER's are used on routes into SFO aswell. Definately saw one parked up on day-stop there a few months ago.
In terms of the runways used at LAX, assuming it's physically possible to get the A380 to the southerly runways, why would you not use the extra 600m of 25R for such a heavyweight departure? Surely a few mins extra taxiing is going to make little difference to block time on such a long flight?
In terms of the runways used at LAX, assuming it's physically possible to get the A380 to the southerly runways, why would you not use the extra 600m of 25R for such a heavyweight departure? Surely a few mins extra taxiing is going to make little difference to block time on such a long flight?
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Rolls: A380, 787 Engine Failures Unrelated
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Of course this is a guess, but by the apparent radius of the artifact that created the "heat shadow" on the disc's face, perhaps it could be a portion of the splined surface of the shaft? It does resemble an impellor related to an oil pump, but the radius appears too large. It may be a part of the bearing race, (another guess).What is of note also are the craters, the pocks left by small bits.The acceleration responsible for such small shrapnel to have left those signatures must have been gargantuan.
Qantas is alone at the fair. Something indigenous to the DEP equipped 900's may be responsible? 2k lbs of thrust doesn't seem much percentage wise. This DEP thingy, is it foolproof? If the engine was over commanded, could it have been making far more thrust than 72? On throttle down, can the Fan overwhelm the IP? Could this cause the Wheel to "migrate aftward?" There is AoA in climb to consider? does the inlet air spiral (especially in over performing settings?) Can a too high command even happen.? Just musing. Can the DEP be "re-rigged?" The engine is "certified" to 80k, is there a little extra oomph to be gained (ad hoc) by goofing this plug? The parties each want the other to shoulder all responsibility, it isn't black and white, at least not too often.
edit. on reading the link above, it appears the lines are being drawn on the field of battle. Rolls Royce has answered Joyce (Royce v. Joyce?). The 1000 was over thrusted on test. Both failures involved the IPT, yet Rolls is saying the engine disintegrations are unrelated. Both had to do with oil issues. The migrating fan resulted from? Joyce is claiming the "oil where it mustn't be" is the culprit (at least in the Press). The 777's T700's (038) crapped out at full throttle, though the fuel supposedly froze and caused the loss of thrust. Fuel lines and oil lines, and their attendant plumbing? AoA 038, and Qantas at full in climb, is air management an issue in combination with plumbing glitches. An 112 inch Fan (and all other wheels) make an enormous din, along with the thrust. The mechanical dependence upon balance and thrust reactions is extreme. Brand new oil lines rupturing, one hopes it isn't the wrong spec on the plumbing.
bear
Qantas is alone at the fair. Something indigenous to the DEP equipped 900's may be responsible? 2k lbs of thrust doesn't seem much percentage wise. This DEP thingy, is it foolproof? If the engine was over commanded, could it have been making far more thrust than 72? On throttle down, can the Fan overwhelm the IP? Could this cause the Wheel to "migrate aftward?" There is AoA in climb to consider? does the inlet air spiral (especially in over performing settings?) Can a too high command even happen.? Just musing. Can the DEP be "re-rigged?" The engine is "certified" to 80k, is there a little extra oomph to be gained (ad hoc) by goofing this plug? The parties each want the other to shoulder all responsibility, it isn't black and white, at least not too often.
edit. on reading the link above, it appears the lines are being drawn on the field of battle. Rolls Royce has answered Joyce (Royce v. Joyce?). The 1000 was over thrusted on test. Both failures involved the IPT, yet Rolls is saying the engine disintegrations are unrelated. Both had to do with oil issues. The migrating fan resulted from? Joyce is claiming the "oil where it mustn't be" is the culprit (at least in the Press). The 777's T700's (038) crapped out at full throttle, though the fuel supposedly froze and caused the loss of thrust. Fuel lines and oil lines, and their attendant plumbing? AoA 038, and Qantas at full in climb, is air management an issue in combination with plumbing glitches. An 112 inch Fan (and all other wheels) make an enormous din, along with the thrust. The mechanical dependence upon balance and thrust reactions is extreme. Brand new oil lines rupturing, one hopes it isn't the wrong spec on the plumbing.
bear
Last edited by bearfoil; 9th Nov 2010 at 11:49.
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The RB211 is quite complicated mechanically in the front bearing area having to support the loads of 3 shafts and allow modular assembly. When you add the further complications of cooling and sealing air and the oil system then it only needs a small movement of a splined coupling axially to be the route cause of all sorts of problems.
I guess that most people on this forum are too young to remember the uncontained fan shaft failures of the '80s - this had particularly amusing connotations (in hindsight and thanks to 4 hydraulic system redundancy) when it happend on the #2 L1011 position where the fan hit the s**t. The route cause of this issue was (too) hot air getting into the front bearing housing through misaligned or worn stag seals and causing a fire there. In time this weakened the LP shaft and the fan vanished up the intake releasing the LP turbine blades in the process and literally cutting the engine in half.
This current problem sounds trivial in comparison.
I guess that most people on this forum are too young to remember the uncontained fan shaft failures of the '80s - this had particularly amusing connotations (in hindsight and thanks to 4 hydraulic system redundancy) when it happend on the #2 L1011 position where the fan hit the s**t. The route cause of this issue was (too) hot air getting into the front bearing housing through misaligned or worn stag seals and causing a fire there. In time this weakened the LP shaft and the fan vanished up the intake releasing the LP turbine blades in the process and literally cutting the engine in half.
This current problem sounds trivial in comparison.
In terms of the runways used at LAX, assuming it's physically possible to get the A380 to the southerly runways, why would you not use the extra 600m of 25R for such a heavyweight departure? Surely a few mins extra taxiing is going to make little difference to block time on such a long flight?
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Could it possibly be 'foul play' by a disgruntled employee
on the maintenace side seeing as Qantas have had a few
engine problems recently?
Engines that are certified at 70 or 72 have been tested
and have passed all the neccesary requirements.
Just seems so odd that this airline is the only airline to
have such problems.
MM
on the maintenace side seeing as Qantas have had a few
engine problems recently?
Engines that are certified at 70 or 72 have been tested
and have passed all the neccesary requirements.
Just seems so odd that this airline is the only airline to
have such problems.
MM
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MM
"Foul Play" ? .... no. No possibility.
It appears from investigations that there is a systemic problem that has been discovered, and several engines are affected.
I don't think QF is the only airline with these engine problems.
A380 / LAX 25R
The A380 is unable to use 25R owing to insufficient wingtip clearance with aircraft on the adjacent taxiway B, and obviously it is unable to use B or C for the same reason to get to 25R. If they use 25L (say they were parked on the South side), they cross the runways and use the taxiways to the South.
Same story on 24L and E if there is a 747 on either (though that is not often). We were held in position on 24L once in a 747 whilst an A380 cleared E after taxiing all the way back after landing 24R.
The A380 and its big wing give it an advantage in airfield performance and altitude selection, so 24L is a practical (if tight on occasion) option.
747 400ER
They are fitted with First Class, so even though they might appear in SFO, that would be unusual, since QF don't sell First in the SFO run.
The vanilla 400 can do LAX-MEL with restrictions (initially they were used for that when the route opened) however the ER is much more comfortable, with the extra fuel and takeoff weight. Does about the same payload as an A380 on that sector, though obviously not the same number of seats.
The ER is generally favoured for SYD-EZE, SYD-JNB and LAX-MEL (soon to be replaced) because of its extra capability.
N
"Foul Play" ? .... no. No possibility.
It appears from investigations that there is a systemic problem that has been discovered, and several engines are affected.
I don't think QF is the only airline with these engine problems.
A380 / LAX 25R
The A380 is unable to use 25R owing to insufficient wingtip clearance with aircraft on the adjacent taxiway B, and obviously it is unable to use B or C for the same reason to get to 25R. If they use 25L (say they were parked on the South side), they cross the runways and use the taxiways to the South.
Same story on 24L and E if there is a 747 on either (though that is not often). We were held in position on 24L once in a 747 whilst an A380 cleared E after taxiing all the way back after landing 24R.
The A380 and its big wing give it an advantage in airfield performance and altitude selection, so 24L is a practical (if tight on occasion) option.
747 400ER
They are fitted with First Class, so even though they might appear in SFO, that would be unusual, since QF don't sell First in the SFO run.
The vanilla 400 can do LAX-MEL with restrictions (initially they were used for that when the route opened) however the ER is much more comfortable, with the extra fuel and takeoff weight. Does about the same payload as an A380 on that sector, though obviously not the same number of seats.
The ER is generally favoured for SYD-EZE, SYD-JNB and LAX-MEL (soon to be replaced) because of its extra capability.
N
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22B,
I dont remember this problem
The L1011 fan problem which resulted in fan blade release was due to a manufacturing process where 2 discs were cut from a single billet.
I dont remember this problem
The L1011 fan problem which resulted in fan blade release was due to a manufacturing process where 2 discs were cut from a single billet.
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ATSB - Update to investigation
Update at 2010-11-09 0550UTC from ATSB
Flight crew interviews
The ATSB today commenced interviews in Sydney with the flight crew, and are being assisted by an Airbus A380 test pilot. The flight crew interviews will provide an understanding of the aircraft's performance during the emergency, and of the flight crew's actions to recover from that emergency. The flight crew will also be able to advise what went well during their management of the emergency. This will provide highly useful safety lessons for managing similar incidents in the future.
Aircraft examination continuing
The aircraft has now been moved to a hangar at Changi Aerodrome. An initial internal examination of the No 2 engine has been carried out using a slender optical periscope (borescope). The engine is expected to be removed from the aircraft's wing for technical examination during the next few days.
Locating aircraft components
The ATSB has mapped the damage to the aircraft. This map is being used with relevant recorded flight data to localise the search on Bantam Island for the remaining engine and other debris. The ATSB is working with the Indonesian Transportation Safety Committee and Batam Island authorities to recover those components. ATSB investigators are particularly interested in recovering the remainder of the fractured turbine disk. The ATSB advises Bantam island residents to avoid handling any of the aircraft components due to potential health risks.
Turbine disk examination
ATSB investigators have arrived at the Rolls Royce facility in Derby, the United Kingdom to examine the recovered portion of the No 2 engine turbine disk. A copy of the recorded flight data has been provided to the engine and aircraft manufacturers by the respective accredited representatives. This will allow the manufacturers to assist with a full understanding of the data and its implications for the investigation.
An investigation of this complexity can take up to a year to complete. However, should any critical safety issues emerge, the ATSB will immediately bring those issues to the attention of the relevant authorities.
The ATSB today commenced interviews in Sydney with the flight crew, and are being assisted by an Airbus A380 test pilot. The flight crew interviews will provide an understanding of the aircraft's performance during the emergency, and of the flight crew's actions to recover from that emergency. The flight crew will also be able to advise what went well during their management of the emergency. This will provide highly useful safety lessons for managing similar incidents in the future.
Aircraft examination continuing
The aircraft has now been moved to a hangar at Changi Aerodrome. An initial internal examination of the No 2 engine has been carried out using a slender optical periscope (borescope). The engine is expected to be removed from the aircraft's wing for technical examination during the next few days.
Locating aircraft components
The ATSB has mapped the damage to the aircraft. This map is being used with relevant recorded flight data to localise the search on Bantam Island for the remaining engine and other debris. The ATSB is working with the Indonesian Transportation Safety Committee and Batam Island authorities to recover those components. ATSB investigators are particularly interested in recovering the remainder of the fractured turbine disk. The ATSB advises Bantam island residents to avoid handling any of the aircraft components due to potential health risks.
Turbine disk examination
ATSB investigators have arrived at the Rolls Royce facility in Derby, the United Kingdom to examine the recovered portion of the No 2 engine turbine disk. A copy of the recorded flight data has been provided to the engine and aircraft manufacturers by the respective accredited representatives. This will allow the manufacturers to assist with a full understanding of the data and its implications for the investigation.
An investigation of this complexity can take up to a year to complete. However, should any critical safety issues emerge, the ATSB will immediately bring those issues to the attention of the relevant authorities.
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The L1011 fan problem which resulted in fan blade release was due to a manufacturing process where 2 discs were cut from a single billet.
The failures were all in discs cut from one end of the billet. Those from the other end were fine. The problem went back to the production of the billet!
