Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure
Two points in the link Northern Kestrel provided that caught my eye
ACARS?
The company was aware of that – because we’d lost our No2 electrical bus we’d lost the satellite phone, so we couldn’t communicate airborne directly with the company.
They were getting telemetry from the aircraft that it was still flying
They were getting telemetry from the aircraft that it was still flying
I’m sure Airbus will look back at its systems and there will probably be changes because, in our case, we had, as an example, messages that would say ‘aircraft CoG out of limits’ and was asking us to move fuel from horizontal stabiliser forward to bring it within limits and the next message would say the ‘THS transfer not available’.
So one message contradicting another – that sort of thing, I’m sure would go back and be looked at.
But at the end of the day common sense and airmanship takes over.
We didn’t blindly follow the ECAMs. We looked at each one individually, analysed it, and either rejected it or actioned it as we thought we should.
From a training point of view it doesn’t matter what aeroplane you are flying airmanship has to take over.
In fact, Airbus has some golden rules which we all adhered to on the day – aviate, navigate and communicate
So one message contradicting another – that sort of thing, I’m sure would go back and be looked at.
But at the end of the day common sense and airmanship takes over.
We didn’t blindly follow the ECAMs. We looked at each one individually, analysed it, and either rejected it or actioned it as we thought we should.
From a training point of view it doesn’t matter what aeroplane you are flying airmanship has to take over.
In fact, Airbus has some golden rules which we all adhered to on the day – aviate, navigate and communicate
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It also made it clear that the standard crew of 3 was adequate for this situation.
Well I hope we'll get more info about how partially was the wing structure affected (i.e. how reduced was its resistance to loads)
Would you guys think a general guide in the QRH, as you OE suggested, could tell the pilots about the probability of how bad the wing should be affected, depending on what the pilot sees (wing + engine) (I know it won't be precise) ?
This would give pilots some more situation awareness before taking the decision to stay airborne to handle problems or decide it might be wiser to start an approach for an (emergency) landing
Would you guys think a general guide in the QRH, as you OE suggested, could tell the pilots about the probability of how bad the wing should be affected, depending on what the pilot sees (wing + engine) (I know it won't be precise) ?
This would give pilots some more situation awareness before taking the decision to stay airborne to handle problems or decide it might be wiser to start an approach for an (emergency) landing
If it is strong enough, we are only getting lighter as we burn fuel, and us airline types tend to manoeuvre gently all the time, so "limiting 'g'" is not really necessary advice.As said above, an interesting article...
Last edited by NigelOnDraft; 8th Dec 2010 at 19:59.
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Duly noted, and agreed. Did you have a chance to backcheck my reference? An answer would be appreciated.
I agreed with CAAAD who replied after your comment so had nothing to add at that stage.
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Bearfoil
Sorry for the delay in response.
My quote: I can't see it happening if the disc moved rearward easily and it is hard envision if the disc moved forward, except for the first 90 degrees of the bending.
Oops! This was poor wording on my part. I should of said: "I can't easily see how the bending in the direction observed in the recovered section of the disc occurred if it moved rearward."
The point I made regarding the rear bearing of the HP shaft was just a clarification item from my original post. But, I am still not sure in my mind exactly where the stub pipe was located that failed. Was it in the HPT/IPT bearing area in the turbine section of the engine or at the bearing location in the compressor section of the engine. The observation made in the ASTB report stated only some components forward of the fire wall were heat affected. I take this to indicate the fire was in the turbine area not the compressor area, but I could be wrong.
Turbine D
Sorry for the delay in response.
My quote: I can't see it happening if the disc moved rearward easily and it is hard envision if the disc moved forward, except for the first 90 degrees of the bending.
Oops! This was poor wording on my part. I should of said: "I can't easily see how the bending in the direction observed in the recovered section of the disc occurred if it moved rearward."
The point I made regarding the rear bearing of the HP shaft was just a clarification item from my original post. But, I am still not sure in my mind exactly where the stub pipe was located that failed. Was it in the HPT/IPT bearing area in the turbine section of the engine or at the bearing location in the compressor section of the engine. The observation made in the ASTB report stated only some components forward of the fire wall were heat affected. I take this to indicate the fire was in the turbine area not the compressor area, but I could be wrong.
Turbine D
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Did he pass?
I just had the pleasure to read the interview with David Evans. Unfortunately, there is one burning question that is answered neither in this forum not in that interview:
Did the captain pass the line check? :-))
SCNR, Torsten
Did the captain pass the line check? :-))
SCNR, Torsten
Rolls denies that it knew about Trent 900 weakness
Interesting. The issues of damages will get quite complex given that 2/3 operators kept flying - i.e. Quantas loss of revenue due to fleet grouding may have been technically self imposed. Not that we'll probably ever find out what they eventually settle on......
Either way its a slightly different story to this the day before....
Qantas unhappy with Rolls-Royce reaction
Interesting. The issues of damages will get quite complex given that 2/3 operators kept flying - i.e. Quantas loss of revenue due to fleet grouding may have been technically self imposed. Not that we'll probably ever find out what they eventually settle on......
Either way its a slightly different story to this the day before....
Qantas unhappy with Rolls-Royce reaction
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JFZ90
For what it's worth, Rolls is parsing their information, as they are free to do, and as would I were I in their loafers. They deny a "Design Modification", which is NOT the same as a Replacement part. Note that the NEW PART has the same Part number as the one on A and B Models!!
Only lawyers can write like this, and if one believes this release didn't detour through Legal, one is myopic. Not you, certainly
For what it's worth, Rolls is parsing their information, as they are free to do, and as would I were I in their loafers. They deny a "Design Modification", which is NOT the same as a Replacement part. Note that the NEW PART has the same Part number as the one on A and B Models!!
Only lawyers can write like this, and if one believes this release didn't detour through Legal, one is myopic. Not you, certainly
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Ah, yes! The lawyers are definitely in charge of the situation, it would be true in any company, aircraft engine or not, where the liability is great. The leaders of these two companies are polar opposites, only the one that is the customer leader is extroverted and outgoing. There is virtually nothing of importance published or verbalized that isn't "scrubbed" by the Legal Department these days.
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Flapping Madly
Not having knowledge of Roll's supply chain or what they may still make internally, it is hard to say exactly who made this stub tube component. As I suggested in a previous post, there are companies today that produce these components. An example would be Parker Hannifin, an American company with a worldwide presence. From their web site, you can see the various array items they produce, either of their own design or to the customer's design and specifications. Also, they produce tubing of all sorts including stainless steel and nickel alloys. I would bet however, this part is sourced out and not produced internally at Rolls Royce. But I could be wrong.
Hydraulic, fuel, inerting, flight control, fluid conveyance, engine, electronics cooling
Turbine D
Not having knowledge of Roll's supply chain or what they may still make internally, it is hard to say exactly who made this stub tube component. As I suggested in a previous post, there are companies today that produce these components. An example would be Parker Hannifin, an American company with a worldwide presence. From their web site, you can see the various array items they produce, either of their own design or to the customer's design and specifications. Also, they produce tubing of all sorts including stainless steel and nickel alloys. I would bet however, this part is sourced out and not produced internally at Rolls Royce. But I could be wrong.
Hydraulic, fuel, inerting, flight control, fluid conveyance, engine, electronics cooling
Turbine D
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Turbine D:
Because of the superior actions of a superior flight crew who saved the day, we can now have endless fun with this one on this forum. When the legal stiffs become visible, it has to be fun for those of us on the sidelines when its simply about product liability and not loss of life.
Ah, yes! The lawyers are definitely in charge of the situation, it would be true in any company, aircraft engine or not, where the liability is great. The leaders of these two companies are polar opposites, only the one that is the customer leader is extroverted and outgoing. There is virtually nothing of importance published or verbalized that isn't "scrubbed" by the Legal Department these days.
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To put all those eager to know the outcome of the route-check out of their misery .....
No.
The Route-check was deemed invalid because input was received from the check personnel.
n
No.
The Route-check was deemed invalid because input was received from the check personnel.
n
Last edited by noip; 9th Dec 2010 at 05:15.
Hoist them high on their own (outsourced) petard.
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Turbine D:
Whether the part was manufactured in-house or outsourced, RR retains the responsibility for final inspection prior to assembly.
It is rather astonishing that parts with a defect that substantial would find their way into a number of completed engines.
I would bet however, this part is sourced out and not produced internally at Rolls Royce.
It is rather astonishing that parts with a defect that substantial would find their way into a number of completed engines.
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With the benefit of hindsight, this is roughly what Alan Joyce should have said on 4 Nov.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Initial inspections of the damage suggest that a turbine disk has burst and fragments of the disk have penetrated the wing and fuselage. It is too early to take a view on the root cause of the engine failure. But it is essential to appreciate that this type of failure is a very rare event that should be viewed in the context of the operating history of the engine and the regulatory environment that ensures safety in air travel. There is no indication of a fleet-wide safety issue but we will work closely with the regulators, Airbus and Rolls Royce during the ongoing investigation to ensure continued safe operations. Despite this setback, we continue to have every confidence in the A380 powered by the Rolls Royce Trent 900. We will continue flying the A380.
Thank you.
What he actually did was take fright and panic, cost his airline a huge amount of lost revenue and ended up in court proceedings with his engine supplier. He might just loose his job over this. It is just as bad that the press applauded him for it.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Initial inspections of the damage suggest that a turbine disk has burst and fragments of the disk have penetrated the wing and fuselage. It is too early to take a view on the root cause of the engine failure. But it is essential to appreciate that this type of failure is a very rare event that should be viewed in the context of the operating history of the engine and the regulatory environment that ensures safety in air travel. There is no indication of a fleet-wide safety issue but we will work closely with the regulators, Airbus and Rolls Royce during the ongoing investigation to ensure continued safe operations. Despite this setback, we continue to have every confidence in the A380 powered by the Rolls Royce Trent 900. We will continue flying the A380.
Thank you.
What he actually did was take fright and panic, cost his airline a huge amount of lost revenue and ended up in court proceedings with his engine supplier. He might just loose his job over this. It is just as bad that the press applauded him for it.
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Counterbored tube. fig.9 P.16 here http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2888854...y%20report.pdf
Drawing error perhaps ?
Misinterpretation of geometrc tolerancing requirement, at design, manf. dwg. and/or inspection?
The misaligned counter bore is so obviously visible by eye that one could imagine inspection querying drawing intent - and if no one really understood and 'didn't like to ask' - Curtains !!
-0-
Drawing error perhaps ?
Misinterpretation of geometrc tolerancing requirement, at design, manf. dwg. and/or inspection?
The misaligned counter bore is so obviously visible by eye that one could imagine inspection querying drawing intent - and if no one really understood and 'didn't like to ask' - Curtains !!
-0-
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The next qantas CEO will be Mr Harry Hindsight.He will wield a well polished crystal ball to see the future.
Joyce's performances have not been great, especially early on but the grounding of the fleet, in the opinion of this engineer was entirely warranted and wise.The engineer's union is at war with qantas over other issues but in this case they believe the correct call was made and have said so publicly.
Joyce's performances have not been great, especially early on but the grounding of the fleet, in the opinion of this engineer was entirely warranted and wise.The engineer's union is at war with qantas over other issues but in this case they believe the correct call was made and have said so publicly.