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Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .

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Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .

Old 13th Oct 2010, 20:07
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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The solution is very simple, if the French continue to insist on the fact to only use the French language in their documention, fine! But this should limit them to only operate within their own country.

Leave the rest to the Dutch part.....
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 20:11
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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English has become the language of aviation by historical default. For my own part I could happily operate in three different languages-one of which happens to be French (Canadian version!). I am, however, an English speaker by birth.

The safety case is irrefutable that their should be one language used for communications and it happens to be English, by rights it should be Mandarin! I sympathise with all those who have to struggle with English but at least (unlike French) "La Mot Juste" is available! Tin hat on.
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 20:25
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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There must be a case for Iberia to supply manuals in Catalan..... and Gallego, Euskera, Asturiano, Valenciano, Mallorquin ...
SHHHHHH!!!!! Will you just shut up?

And there was me just thinking we were lucky and for once not being the ones applying ridiculous language legislation.... the last thing we need is that some of our more hawkish politicians from nationalist parties get the idea...

And we are having soon elections in the catalonian provinces...
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 21:12
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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What about all those damned english labels in the AF cockpits? Shouldn´t they be changed into french ones as well? And wot about the EICAS messages, FMS (excuse me, Ordinateur d'navigation) ?
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 21:30
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Originally Posted by Reinhardt
Yes, english is one of the main languages in aviation...
Sorry, mate, it is THE language in aviation.
I know it's tough to admit ... but it was the Allies, such as the Amis and the Rosbifs and the Ozzies and the Kiwis, that did a large part of winning the last war (WWII).
As a consequence, a large part of our early post-war technology was English-language based, and so was most of our aviation infra-structure.
Great idea... all speako the same lingo, we all know what we're talkin' about, no?

And thanks again for ChristiaanJ, for saying that french isn't a technical language... probably the most stupid assertion of all those pages. He will be forgotten anyway - being obviously deprieved of any academic background, I can understand he missed a lot of it, and has no idea of what has been written or achieved in so many fields.
LOL... Nice one....
Unfortunately for you, I have a degree in aeronautical engineering... also 35-odd years of experience in the field (including Concorde)...also 40-odd years of technical French.

The rest of your waffle clearly identifies you as a "sciolist", as defined at the bottom of each PPRuNe page...
Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed"
Said otherwise: you ain't got a clue what you're talkin' about....

Nuff said.

CJ

Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 13th Oct 2010 at 21:36. Reason: typo
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 21:36
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Question

Hang on a minute. Air France and KLM are part of the AF/KLM group but aren't both airlines on independent operating certificates? I can see a court ruling regarding AF affecting AF operations but how does have an effect on KLM? Are KLM and AF manuals identical in content? Isn't the regulating authority supervising KLM the Dutch CAA? Things don't add up here.

The safety case is irrefutable that their should be one language used for communications and it happens to be English ...
If you refer to ATC comms there's been plenty of colo(u)rful talk here on pprune. Opinions differ(ed), and no one IMHO came up with the smoking gun. I still believe that many English-only speaking pilots (monoglots) have a certain arrogance about their language as the only language.

Sorry, mate, it is THE language in aviation.
Beg to differ, replace THE with MAIN or ONE OF THE but it has been discussed here as well. There might be differences in certain areas, but English is not the only international aviation language. It is written somewhere in the seemingly infinite ICAO jungle of documents. If I remember correctly English, French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese were mentioned. EDIT: It also stated (concerning ATC transmissions) if a common language cannot be determined then English should be used.

Now I wonder if it is time to revive the French ATC thread

Last edited by Squawk7777; 13th Oct 2010 at 22:15. Reason: incorrect spelling, additional comments
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 21:52
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English is the language of aviation :


Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
Lufthansa (in German): "I am a German, flying a German registered aircraft, for a German airline, in Germany. Why must I speak English?"
Ground (in English) : Because English is the offical language of civil aviation.
Unknown voice from another plane (in a British accent): " And because you lost the bloody war ......"
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 21:55
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Has been mentioned here, too. German-language ATC transmissions are common but usually restricted to VFR operations, so don't be surprised to hear German at international airports.

One thing I'd like to know. What was the ATC language in former East Germany?

Edit:

Christiaan, one question. What is the problem with technical French? I have read technical French, German and English, maybe not to the detail you have. What is the disadvantage? I know translations can be difficult, but I don't see French being a disadvantage in the technical field.

Last edited by Squawk7777; 13th Oct 2010 at 22:07.
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 22:19
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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What was the ATC language in former East Germany?
Russian is an aviation language too.
Alies wouldn't have won the war without them...
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 23:29
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The problem?

The problem is, what happens if just one manual is translated incorrectly, which leads to an incident. I won't call it an accident, because if the crew followed the incorrectly translated instructions to the letter.......

What sort of hole are we digging?
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 00:04
  #51 (permalink)  
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Angry Native English Speaker Vilification

RHINE-HEART?
which allows a lot of not-so-good individuals from Australia, Canada, US, UK, to start a pilot career with a definite advantage, thus concealing much of their other weaknesses with their "command of english".
.

Did someone forget to hug you when you were young? FWIW, your comments smack of racial vilification; the assumption of racial superiority that underlies your post is rather offensive.

"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings.
(Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen)"
Heinrich Heine (1797-1856)
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 00:19
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So what happens as the luckless person(s) who is/are confronted with doing this stupid translation comes up against the first English acronym, e.g. IFR?

Do they write, 'règles de vol aux instruments', or RDVAI, or RVI?

Hopefully, AF will appeal this judgement to the highest court in the land, and if necessary to the European Court of Justice.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 00:38
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BrATCO
Russian is an aviation language too.
Alies wouldn't have won the war without them...
Too bad that they started it as well.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 04:12
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Wink

Reinhart...

And some of those nations (Ireland, Australia, NZ) enjoy being called "great aviation nations" (because they do supply a big percentage of the pilot workforces of many companies in the world ) ... when they don"t build any aircraft, choppers, fighters, rockets or satellites.
You obviously haven't got a bloody clue about what Australia has actually '...achieved in so many fields' in aviation, Rienhart.

OK, so Australia doesn't build helicopters, but it has built (and still does build) aircraft, was the the first country to have a civilian DME system, developed the T-VASIS, developed the flight data recorder, launched its first satellite in 1967 (WRESAT) and in doing so became the fourth country in the world to do so, has the HyShot (scramjet) program, and has been involved with rocket programs since the 60's (Blue Streak, followed on by ELDO etc).

As fdr said:

FWIW [Reinhart], your comments smack of racial vilification; the assumption of racial superiority that underlies your post is rather offensive.
I have to agree with fdr. Your xenophobic assertions Reinhart, demonstrate the wisdom of Mark Twain's comment: It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Last edited by SIUYA; 14th Oct 2010 at 04:33.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 04:50
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Simple really, just stop al AF flights from operating outside French Airspace until the union and courts have a rethink.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 06:35
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And which authority will "stop AF flights " to operate out of their country ?

As for any airline, provided they speak a decent english on the radio, write a similar decent one on the CPDLC, and eventually manage to be understood in english by all the dispatchers and engineers at destination, they can express their cockpit calls and read their manuals in the language they want, including esperanto can't they ? (especially if their country build the aircraft... )
I remember the C-160 Transall aircraft, with all the labelling written in both french and german, and believe me that wasn't a problem, even a pleasure.
Regarding "supposed racial vilification" (always an easy trick those days to call this one) I'm not sure to which side we should put this one. Obviously some people cannot figure that aircraft manuals can be written in another language than english.
Regarding australian achevements in aerospace, well, I accept the ones supplied by Siuya, even there are not so many after all - compared to countries like Germany, France or Italy.
And ChristaanJ... OK you have been ground engineer for dozens of years. Sorry young man, but I have more. As I want to stay anonymous, nothing more unfortunately.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 06:54
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I guess Reinhardt is a bit distressed about the fact, that he had to learn English in order to work in Qatar as a civilian, after having served the better part of his life in da Lufwaffe, ja? After all they do really struggle on the radio when flying in foreign, English speaking countries.

Give him some slack guys! Life is just not fair...
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 07:22
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Too bad that they started it as well.
You're right, their dictature chose the "best" end of the stick anytime : German side at the beginning, Alies in the end. I don't think the people chose to go on war. Not more than English people chose to send soldiers in Irak, or French in Afghanistan...
Anyway, Russian is an aviation language, but I'm not sure that was THE aviation language in DDR...

As for Air France and their manuals, I suspect a move from the union to avoid KLM pilots to replace AFR pilots in the French fleet. (Just a guess.)
Exactly the same as English speaking pilots wanting everyone to speak English : for safety reasons...
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 07:53
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Reminds me of working in a well known UK high tech multinational that no longer exists. We were delivering some big satellite earth stations to Germany (Those were the days ). We had been good enough to translate all documents and quotes into German. A troubled message was received from the customer: Why do we need twelve large aquatic sheep?

It turns out that an "acquatic sheep" is NOT a "hydraulic ram"
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 09:16
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Arrow

As for Air France and their manuals, I suspect a move from the union to avoid KLM pilots to replace AFR pilots in the French fleet. (Just a guess.)
Exactly the same as English speaking pilots wanting everyone to speak English : for safety reasons...
BrATCO, the companies KLM and AF still have the requirements to speak English and the national language. Like Iberia, LH, Swiss etc. The court ruling and its implication on KLM are still unclear to me, as they are two different airlines operating under two different regulatory authorities.

For those who claim that a national language with its abbreviations other than English don't work or cause greater risk, I cannot really share this point of view. I had looked into this and Latin America which is mainly Spanish speaking seems to have no problem with it. There are a few instances where English speakers get amused, and usually the characters are shuffled around; the General Operating Manual (GOM) is abbreviated MGO in Spanish. If I remember correctly COPA has a dual set of manuals, English and Spanish.

I see this thread derail in typical pprune tradition. Usually, when languages other than English are being discussed, fingers get pointed at France, due to the almost hostile tradition and history of relations between France and the UK.

Bad translations from manuals result from poor proof-reading. Embraer has had its moments, too. Why cannot translated parts be proof-read by engineers or pilots, who are fluent or native speakers?

After all they do really struggle on the radio when flying in foreign, English speaking countries.
Never heard Luftwaffe pilots struggle in English. You may find the accent amusing and certain pronunciation. I have heard more LH pilots with rather poor English skills, but I guess I am not competent enough to question the mighty DLR test

Last edited by Squawk7777; 14th Oct 2010 at 09:29.
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