Pilot arrested in EHAM.
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And where did substance abuse suddenly come from? Is blowing 0.23 now a sign of substance abuse? Am I right in suspecting, AnthonyGA, that you consider even a single glass substance abuse.
Is there a cheap self test kit around 
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I made a deal with the devil. I would not drink alcohol until I retire and please let me live a lot of extra years with my wonderful wife. I and the devil kept his promise and it has worked for me. I met her when I was a lucky kid, thanks to PANAM , working a PANAM 727 and she was an NH F/A dead-heading. Funny, I remember correctly, TAB was the only "diet" drink at that time. There is no excuse for any alcohol level in your blood, cough syrup, what can you think of. Just no excuse!!!
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Hey slick, site me a commercial airline crash that was caused by a drunken pilot
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I'm reminded of the experiment I saw in which an airline pilot with tens of thousands of hours was blindfolded during a flight while another pilot put the aircraft through a few simple, harmless maneuvers. The airline pilot was then asked to describe the movements of the airplane. Of course, he was completely wrong—sensations cannot be trusted in flight. But he seemed very surprised by that.
Either you aren't remembering it correctly, or the program makers were being disingenuous, or the 'pilot' was deliberately being misleading, or in fact had at most a few hours flying experience. Either way its crap.
pb
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@ sec 3
Perm, Russia, 2008 - B735 killed 88 people - pilot error, spatial disorientation.
"Forensic examination found alcohol in the captain's tissue corresponding to a blood alcohol level above 0.052 percent. He also did not have adequate rest before the flight." Wikipedia
WP
Hey slick, site me a commercial airline crash that was caused by a drunken pilot
"Forensic examination found alcohol in the captain's tissue corresponding to a blood alcohol level above 0.052 percent. He also did not have adequate rest before the flight." Wikipedia
WP
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those trying to defend a pilot over the limit here are just like alcoholics themselves.
Those are the people who obviously deny they have a drinking problem
So the solution is simple:
All those trying to defend pilots over the limit on PPRUNE should report every morning for a breathalyzer test prior to the first flight of the day. Problem solved...
Those are the people who obviously deny they have a drinking problem
So the solution is simple:
All those trying to defend pilots over the limit on PPRUNE should report every morning for a breathalyzer test prior to the first flight of the day. Problem solved...
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those trying to defend a pilot over the limit here are just like alcoholics themselves.
Those are the people who obviously deny they have a drinking problem
Those are the people who obviously deny they have a drinking problem
As a non-drinker, there has to be a reasonable consideration of facts and physiology to determine the situation and the circumstances.
lets look at this for example:
How Long Does Alcohol Stay in the Body?
David J. Hanson, Ph.D.
After alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream it leaves the body in two ways. A total of about ten percent leaves through the breath, perspiration, and urine. The remainder is broken down through the process known as metabolism.
The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.
Alcohol is metabolized at the rate of .015 of blood alcohol concentration (BAC) every hour. Thus a person with a very high BAC of .15 will have no measurable alcohol in the bloodstream after ten hours (.15 divided by .015 = 10).
David J. Hanson, Ph.D.
After alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream it leaves the body in two ways. A total of about ten percent leaves through the breath, perspiration, and urine. The remainder is broken down through the process known as metabolism.
The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.
Alcohol is metabolized at the rate of .015 of blood alcohol concentration (BAC) every hour. Thus a person with a very high BAC of .15 will have no measurable alcohol in the bloodstream after ten hours (.15 divided by .015 = 10).
Many foods, and over the counter remedies have alcohol in the content. And as we have seen already a zero level is not attainable due to the human physiology, hence the 0.2 promile limit (being effectively zero [sic]).
So subject to diet, individual physiology etc. the effective limit could quite literally be 'busted' without knowledge or symptomatic evidence.
Now going back to the level of BAC dissipation in the body of 0.023 being metabolized completely in some 1.3 hours, he could well have been over the limit by a Crepe Suzette, or some O.T.C. cough mixture.
The reality is, that could be a career wrecker, without any knowledge or effect being manifested.
It's quite different from a pilot staggering up for duty an unshaven wreck smelling like he's been marinated in Ricard.
All those trying to defend pilots over the limit on PPRuNe should report every morning for a breathalyzer test prior to the first flight of the day. Problem solved... 
However, I would have a problem with it if the results showed me (or you) being over a 'given' level with the net results of a destroyed career, for actually not having consumed a level of alcohol that could impair performance or functional capability.
Meanwhile, people who don't know me nor have ever met me attest on a forum somewhere that I am drunk and should be thrown to the wolves and 'serves me right'.
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 16th Sep 2010 at 09:50.
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safe 12 min later
0.03 promille over the limit??
Considering that a grown male's alcohol-degradation is at a rate of 0.15 promille per hour (corresponding to about 0.25 ltrs of beer), the guy would have been safe 12 minutes later...
Considering that a grown male's alcohol-degradation is at a rate of 0.15 promille per hour (corresponding to about 0.25 ltrs of beer), the guy would have been safe 12 minutes later...
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So what. The guy had the wrong combination of food and accidentally was B'd showing up DUI according to local law (dutch). As any airman of the FAR/AIM compliant system he knew the R&R and said fine I'll pay the fine knowing the consequences would not impact his FAA privileges 
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indeed, however, if he had shown 15 mins later, he would have been under the limit and 'no harm, no foul'.
yet you still have to consider the rate at which the body metabolizes the BAC and 15 mins of dissipation time is the difference between a non-even and a career wrecker.
which indeed I am. however, you then have to consider the aspect of that.
if it is a safety issue, then cough up 700 bucks and continue on your merry way and no violation doesn't correlate.
if it is a safety issue and there is intrinsic faith in the levels set, then the BAC 'bust' should involve further actions, not pay up and fugheddaboudit.
go figure !
yet you still have to consider the rate at which the body metabolizes the BAC and 15 mins of dissipation time is the difference between a non-even and a career wrecker.
As any airman of the FAR/AIM compliant system he knew the R&R and said fine I'll pay the fine knowing the consequences would not impact his FAA privileges
if it is a safety issue, then cough up 700 bucks and continue on your merry way and no violation doesn't correlate.
if it is a safety issue and there is intrinsic faith in the levels set, then the BAC 'bust' should involve further actions, not pay up and fugheddaboudit.
go figure !
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Listerine?
what if the pilot had just gargled with "Listerine" or "Scope" in the rest rooms on the way to the gate in order to have a fresh breath? How much would the reading show?
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USA Today article (possibly from AP)
USA Today's Today in the Sky had a brief article about a "debate" occurring on alcohol limits for pilots, although the article never really explains where this alleged debate is occurring, or what exactly is being debated about alcohol limits:
Pilots' alcohol limits debated - USATODAY.com
Pilots' alcohol limits debated - USATODAY.com
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"Forensic examination found alcohol in the captain's tissue corresponding to a blood alcohol level above 0.052 percent."
As soon as you die and decomposition sets in, one byproduct is alcohol. So I wonder if it's even possible to determine whether alcohol in a body has come from drinking or decomposition.
As soon as you die and decomposition sets in, one byproduct is alcohol. So I wonder if it's even possible to determine whether alcohol in a body has come from drinking or decomposition.
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A few points to address:
That never happens to people in normal health. As I've repeatedly explained, endogenous alcohol levels are so low—100 to 1000 times lower than levels reached by drinking alcohol—that they are hard to even measure. They do not put anyone over legal limits.
In cases where endogenous alcohol levels are high enough to look like levels achieved by drinking, there's always some sort of significant abnormality or pathology involved, such as resections of the GI tract or pH abnormalities of the gut, combined with specific diets. Normal people do not produce measurable quantities of alcohol within their bodies.
And even if someone does produce significant alcohol internally, a BAC of 0.02 reached from intoxication with endogenous alcohol has exactly the same physiological effects as the same level achieved by drinking, So a pilot who is pulled aside for this level is unfit to fly, whether he got that way by drinking or through some abnormal condition that produced vast amounts of endogenous alcohol. Either way, unless he can bring that level down, his flying duty has ended. Above 0.04, he may be able to avoid certificate action if he can demonstrate that he did not achieve that level by drinking, but he's still grounded and medically unfit to fly.
Overall, endogenous alcohol is too rarely a cause of intoxication to be significant, even though numerous DUI lawyers hold this out as a sort of carrot to clients, implying that it can be successfully used as a defense (but it can't, unless it actually happened and that can be proved).
No, you're not right. How much you consume is irrelevant. What's relevant is how much alcohol you have in your blood when you engage in activities that can affect the safety of others or their property.
Substance abuse is abuse of a recreational or other drug in situations where it is inappropriate. Blowing 0.23 is fine when you're at home, or at a bar, or at a wedding, or whatever. But it's abuse if you blow it before entering the flight deck. Alcohol intoxication is unacceptable on the flight deck, and if you are intoxicated there, you're engaging in substance abuse.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that some health-care professionals may be intoxicated (and unfortunately it is a significant problem) doesn't mean that it's okay for pilots to be intoxicated, too. Instead, it's wrong for the doctors and nurses to be intoxicated, and they should be treated exactly as pilots are if they are found to be intoxicated while performing safety-related duties.
As it happens, pilots are in one of the most heavily regulated professions around, more regulated even than doctors and lawyers. But that doesn't mean that the standards for alcohol should be relaxed. Rather, they should be tightened for other professions affecting public safety.
All of them, when a professional is caught intoxicated. It's just that most professions don't test for intoxication as diligently as the aviation industry—unfortunately. But a drunk train driver caught in that state gets a lot of press, too, if an accident occurs or if he is caught under circumstances that catch public attention.
In any case, talking about a drunk pilot in the tabloids is no big deal, provided that cooler heads prevail. If he really is drunk, it's time for a career change, and if he's not, he can simply continue flying. His fifteen minutes of fame will be over very quickly, and then he will be forgotten.
In the United States, the great majority of those tested would be clean, with zero alcohol in their blood. And more than a few companies will fire employees who show up intoxicated, if they find out about it. Nearly half the U.S. population doesn't drink at all. However, the U.S. is unusually abstinent among developed countries. In France or the U.K., the number of people who don't drink at all is very low. Still, most of them would blow clean if tested upon arrival at work. Even in France, where about 16% of the population suffers from some degree of alcohol addiction, most people still arrive at work with no alcohol on board (although there are always a few who fairly reek of ethanol even at 7 AM—something that doesn't seem to bother French employers).
All very good but please tell me why someone who has never had a drink in their life should be jailed for the small amounts of alcohol that the body produces during the digestion of food.
In cases where endogenous alcohol levels are high enough to look like levels achieved by drinking, there's always some sort of significant abnormality or pathology involved, such as resections of the GI tract or pH abnormalities of the gut, combined with specific diets. Normal people do not produce measurable quantities of alcohol within their bodies.
And even if someone does produce significant alcohol internally, a BAC of 0.02 reached from intoxication with endogenous alcohol has exactly the same physiological effects as the same level achieved by drinking, So a pilot who is pulled aside for this level is unfit to fly, whether he got that way by drinking or through some abnormal condition that produced vast amounts of endogenous alcohol. Either way, unless he can bring that level down, his flying duty has ended. Above 0.04, he may be able to avoid certificate action if he can demonstrate that he did not achieve that level by drinking, but he's still grounded and medically unfit to fly.
Overall, endogenous alcohol is too rarely a cause of intoxication to be significant, even though numerous DUI lawyers hold this out as a sort of carrot to clients, implying that it can be successfully used as a defense (but it can't, unless it actually happened and that can be proved).
And where did substance abuse suddenly come from? Is blowing 0.23 now a sign of substance abuse? Am I right in suspecting, AnthonyGA, that you consider even a single glass substance abuse.
Substance abuse is abuse of a recreational or other drug in situations where it is inappropriate. Blowing 0.23 is fine when you're at home, or at a bar, or at a wedding, or whatever. But it's abuse if you blow it before entering the flight deck. Alcohol intoxication is unacceptable on the flight deck, and if you are intoxicated there, you're engaging in substance abuse.
It happens elsewhere.
Ever seen "Nurse Jackie"? A classic scenario of a health care professional on the edge... Who knows what the good doctor has in HIS bloodstream as he is trying to patch you up.
Ever seen "Nurse Jackie"? A classic scenario of a health care professional on the edge... Who knows what the good doctor has in HIS bloodstream as he is trying to patch you up.
As it happens, pilots are in one of the most heavily regulated professions around, more regulated even than doctors and lawyers. But that doesn't mean that the standards for alcohol should be relaxed. Rather, they should be tightened for other professions affecting public safety.
There is indeed something "magic" about flying (in many respects). Every time a pilot is breathalysed, and even if he turns out to be completely innocent, it is "Drunk Pilot" in the Tabloids all round, and the usual bunch of sanctimonious prudes float to the surface here. How many other professions get that?
In any case, talking about a drunk pilot in the tabloids is no big deal, provided that cooler heads prevail. If he really is drunk, it's time for a career change, and if he's not, he can simply continue flying. His fifteen minutes of fame will be over very quickly, and then he will be forgotten.
I wonder how many other people, if breathalysed at the start of their work day would be ridiculously past the limit airline pilots are required to meet, and 99.9% do, due to a few too many glasses of vino the night before.
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A lot of blabla about blood alcohol levels while every professional in this industry knows the real problem is fatigue, which after a still legal schedule induces effects amounting to 8 times the amount of alcohol we are talking about here. Pilot bashing for 0.0023 s.th. in an industry that drives many people to beyond their limits (even psychological) will not raise safety in any aspect.