Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:13
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC. USA
Age: 57
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Increase your SA....good reason to always fly with the MFD (if you have one) displaying airports. Select HDG, turn the heading bug to the airport and initiate the emergency descent (if required).
Count Dracula is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:13
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Mods Doghouse
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anyone know if there has ever been a case where in a transport aircraft, the flight deck window(s0 were opened due to smoke obstructing vision? The downside is feeding the fire with oxygen of course.
WhatsaLizad-II is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:22
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anyone know if there has ever been a case where in a transport aircraft, the flight deck window(s0 were opened due to smoke obstructing vision? The downside is feeding the fire with oxygen of course.
Yup, PanAmerican, at KBOS, many years ago.
The checklist mentioned...no side window opening advised, however, it was tried, anyway.
The result was not so good, all crew died.
Smoke/fume/fire cause...improperly packed dangerous goods, in that case.
As I recall, some of the shipper employees went to...jail.
Hope so...just where they belonged.
411A is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:25
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@iflyboeing747 - Totally agree. Each case is different. Could it have helped in a total obscuration? Don't know. Hope I never find out my friend.
atlast is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:36
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: IND
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Breezy,
I believe the main reason there is no main deck fire suppression is that it hasn't been required by regulation.
FedEx is installing a self designed main deck fire suppression on their MD-11 freighters. It's a system that uses a can penetrator that runs along a track along the ceiling of the aircraft and is completely automated. It doesn't even have a system test or indication in the cockpit to show whether it's operational.
FDX aviator is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:38
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the City by the Bay
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Swissair Flight 111: in-flight fires.

Not the first inflight fire and likely , sadly not the last. Any chance hot wheels on take off caused the fire?
armchairpilot94116 is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:38
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm a Capt on 744 Freighters.

I always brief if we get ANY fire (engine/cabin/cargo) we WILL turn at 500ft to head downwind* for a return - Thats is againts our company SOP's to follow the SID and do the QRH/Checklist ... BUT I want to LIVE!!!

*OR do a teardrop land witn a tailwind

I also fear the casual nature in which Hazmatt is loaded, their just isnt the time to check every pallet in detail before departure. We put our faith in the shipping agents and handling agents that its packaged and loaded correctly, and is what it says on the paperwork.

I also fear we havent got a main deck fire suppression system on the 744F.
The QRH has us depressurize and suffocate the fire - yeah, right, when its a dodgy chemical spontously combusting ... and we are 600 miles from the nearest bit of tarmac ... get real Mr Boeing .. and the certfiication authorities.

I hope lessons are learnt from it and procedures changed in 'freighter world'....
noblues is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:46
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: i'm in the parking lot
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Who does the ground handling for UPS in Dubai? DNATA? or in house?

Wondering where the boys who loaded that plane are right now...
The Turtle is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:49
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Port Tacky
Age: 66
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
On opening windows during a hazmat fumes situation and or maindeck or cockpit fire, I am aware of at least 2 incidents(not accidents) where a window was opened. Procedure strongly discourages this but in the 2 cases it worked. Both cases were at the Flying Tiger Line, one in the late 1960's and one in the 1970's.... The involved captains told me that the checklist items had been accomplished and the situation was still pretty dire. And both captains said that it was a result of the following thought loop."Well that's every thing in the book, and things look like we are about to die so does anybody have any more ideas?" The window opening enabled a landing, make note that in both situations the aircraft involved were close to landing when the window was opened. There is no "window " to open on a 744 and how the escape hatch or smoke evac port would work might be quite different. Food for thought
Molon Labe is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:52
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
!983 AC DC-9 Cincinnati

Another example of why any delay in getting it on the ground can be bad:

ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-9-32 C-FTLU Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky Airport, KY (CVG)
RobertS975 is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:55
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ZRH
Age: 61
Posts: 574
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
411A, this one?

Clipper Titian 11/03/1973 Boeing B-707-321C(N458PA)
Location: Boston, Massachusetts Time: 09:39
Flight: 160
Route: New York City - Prestwick
3 Aboard / 3 Fatal
Smoke in the cockpit and uncontrollable fire caused by spillage of nitric acid on sawdust packing in the cargo hold.
AN2 Driver is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 22:57
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: My Stringy Brane
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anyone know if there has ever been a case where in a transport aircraft, the flight deck window(s0 were opened due to smoke obstructing vision?

ValueJet 592
Machaca is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 23:24
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anyone know if there has ever been a case where in a transport aircraft, the flight deck window(s0 were opened due to smoke obstructing vision?
1973, VARIG B707, PP-VJZ near Orly, Paris, after toilet fire. Capt had his head out of window to see field before flare; 11 survivors, incl crew, 123 fatalities
GlueBall is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 23:28
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Avon, CT, USA
Age: 68
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
KBOS Accident

Many years ago I attended a seminar, an AME was one of speakers who had looked into that accident. He said the fumes/smoke the crew was breathing was basically LAUGHING GAS.
ATPMBA is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 23:35
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Somewhere Over America
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anyone know if there has ever been a case where in a transport aircraft, the flight deck window(s0 were opened due to smoke obstructing vision? The downside is feeding the fire with oxygen of course.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the 747 has sliding clear view windows. Just a hatch in the middle of the flight deck ceiling/roof.
Halfnut is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 23:45
  #116 (permalink)  
Trash du Blanc
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: KBHM
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Here is the press release about the Fedex system. It will be sold to other carriers:

FedEx Express Advances In-Flight Safety with Automatic Fire Suppression System
FedEx Express, a subsidiary of FedEx Corp. (NYSE:FDX), has unveiled the industry's first onboard automatic fire-suppression system (FSS), elevating the level of safety during international, over-water flights. The comprehensive fire-safety system is the result of seven years of design and development efforts at FedEx Express, and expands upon the company's existing commitment to advancing aviation safety.

"The in-flight safety of crew and cargo is a top priority at FedEx Express, leading to our development of this enhanced fire-safety technology," said Joel Murdock, managing director, Strategic Projects, FedEx Express. "After seven years of design and development, we're proud to see this proprietary technology take flight on a variety of aircraft in the FedEx fleet, representing another strong step forward in our air-safety initiatives."

In April 2009, FedEx Express began installation of the FSS technology on MD-11 freighters " the workhorse of the FedEx international aircraft fleet. Each installation requires approximately 700 man hours and will be completed on the company's 59 MD-11 aircraft in early 2011. FedEx also plans to install the FSS technology on new Boeing 777 Freighters, which begin international service in the company's fleet in early 2010. In all, 74 FedEx wide-body planes used for international, over-water flights will be upgraded with the technology.

How the FedEx FSS Works

The FSS features a network of infrared thermal sensors, foaming-agent generators and an overhead cargo-container injector. If heat is detected by the sensors, the fire suppression technology located above each cargo container is activated, simultaneously alerting crew members. The metal container is pierced by an injector apparatus and filled with an argon-based biodegradable and non-corrosive fire-suppression foam that controls and extinguishes the fire in minutes. Cargo in other containers is unaffected by the system's activation, and the foam has only minimal impact on packages housed within the container. For palletized freight, a special fire-retardant blanket is used to cover the cargo; it restricts the level of oxygen around freight, effectively serving as a fire suppression tool.

In extensive testing, including the certification process, the FedEx FSS proved quick and effective on classes of fires, demonstrating its capability of protecting aircraft, crew and customer shipments from fires started by:

Ordinary materials such as paper or lumber (Class A)
Flammable or combustible liquids such as gasoline or kerosene (Class B)
Combustible metals such as lithium, magnesium titanium, potassium and sodium which burn at extremely high temperatures (Class D).
No other aircraft fire-safety system in use today is effective against Class D fires. Shipments that are subject to what would be considered Class C fires, electrical equipment, for example, will continue to be carried separately in the aircraft's lower belly compartment, and are safeguarded with the industry-standard halon bottle system.

How FedEx FSS Enhances Air Safety

A majority of fire-safety systems in use onboard cargo aircraft require manual activation by a crew member. In addition, many systems only address fires that could potentially occur in containers holding cargo that must be declared and labeled by shippers as being Dangerous Goods. Yet most cargo fires originate from undeclared Dangerous Goods, posing additional challenges to existing fire-suppression systems. Because of its unique over-head design and automatic activation, the FedEx FSS technology overcomes this challenge by suppressing fires contained within any cargo container or pallet on the main flight deck.

In addition, current FAA regulations require that aircraft depressurize, divert to the closest airport and land immediately after any in-flight fire situation. This means that the flight crew has about 30 minutes to safely land the aircraft. With the new FedEx safety system, aircraft on lengthy international flights, which can be up to three hours from land, are able to safely divert and land.

"Our new in-flight system has pushed the industry safety standard to a new level," Murdock said. "With the FedEx technology our pilots have more time to review and assess an in-air situation, further ensuring their safety, and the safety of their plane and cargo."
Huck is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 23:51
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newcastle
Age: 53
Posts: 614
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
At FL350, is there any distinction between the following.
Ordinary materials such as paper or lumber (Class A)
Flammable or combustible liquids such as gasoline or kerosene (Class B)
Combustible metals such as lithium, magnesium titanium, potassium and sodium which burn at extremely high temperatures (Class D).
I am bloody sure if a fire is indicated then I dont worry about what started it.
MATELO is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 23:55
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 45
Posts: 625
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Huck,

Very intresting, thanks for sharing. If FSS does what it says on the tin, it should be made mandatory on all freighters, both on factory fresh and through an AD for in-service aircraft.

Let's see what all those airlines claiming "safety is our number one priority" will say about that.
SMT Member is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 23:59
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Somewhere Over America
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
More intel on the FedEx Automatic Fire Suppression System:

Industry First Onboard Automatic Fire Suppression System | FedEx Global Newsroom
Halfnut is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2010, 00:53
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
411A, this one?

Clipper Titian 11/03/1973 Boeing B-707-321C(N458PA)
Location: Boston, Massachusetts Time: 09:39
Flight: 160
Route: New York City - Prestwick
3 Aboard / 3 Fatal
Smoke in the cockpit and uncontrollable fire caused by spillage of nitric acid on sawdust packing in the cargo hold.
Yup, that's the one...nasty business, that.
411A is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.