UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai
The Arabian Gulf would be a nice warm place to ditch. Might even be worth carrying a two man life raft that could be shoved through the crew escape hatch.
Ditching off Shemya without a survival suit gives you about 15 very unpleasant minutes more life than letting the thing crash.
Ditching off Shemya without a survival suit gives you about 15 very unpleasant minutes more life than letting the thing crash.
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Apologies, I guess it was said earlier, too late now to skim through all the posts - why did they go around? They took of, returned but went around and than crashed? So they were - almost - there but yet so far...?
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why did they go around?
This flight was airborne for some 65 minutes and the emergency was declared approx 30 mins out of Dubai, in Bahrain's FIR and around 100 miles from Doha - that puts them in the middle of the Gulf - the only options therefore, were ditching or trying to make it to Doha/Abu Dhabi/Dubai/Kish island. Ditching in the gulf would be further cimplicated by the huge number of oil platforms out there. I understand then why the elected to divert - what I don't get is why not Doha - they were closer and already headed in the correct direction?
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The report I put on here last night (message194) would be derived from Mode S information to a portable Mode S receiver so I would think the timings and levels quoted are pretty accurate. The hotel quoted is around 1 mile from the threshold of 12R so it suggests they managed to get it down to around 4000' as they overflew the airport.
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Khaleej Times today
5 September 2010, 1:09 PM The UAE General Civil Aviation Authority announced today the preliminary report on the fatal accident of Boeing 747 - 400 Cargo airplane on 3rd September 2010.
According to this report the UPS6 B744 had departed from Dubai International Airport at 14:53 UTC (6:53pm local time) headed to Koln-Bonn (Cologne) - Germany. At 15:15 UTC (7:15pm local time) information was received from Bahrain that the aircraft was returning to Dubai Airport with a smoke in the cockpit, unable to maintain altitude and requested the airport for landing.
The UAE ATC Centre issued a clearance when aircraft was approximately 40 kilometre from touchdown. The aircraft was high on the approach and was at 8500ft at 24 kilometre from touchdown. It passed the overhead the airfield very high and made a right turn. Position reports were passed the tower as well as advising that all runways were available for the aircraft to land on. The aircraft tracked south west and rapidly lost altitude. At approximately 15:42 UTC (7:42pm local time), radar contact was lost. The B744 crashed in an unpopulated area between the Emirates Road and Al Ain Highway after 50 minutes from departure and after returning back from Bahrain FIR (Flight Information Region), the report added.
The GCAA responded by launching an immediate investigation team who are currently on site collecting evidence, analyzing the initial onsite evidence, coordinating with all of the emergency services to secure the accident site, liaising with the aircraft manufacturer technical specialists and international accident investigation bodies who have been invited to assist the GCAA onsite in the UAE under the provisions of ICAO Annex 13.
The investigation team recovered the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) approximately 6 hours after the accident; the onsite GCAA investigation team is continuing the recovery effort to locate the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR), while investigating the aircraft structure, systems, engines and flight controls as part of the forensic evidence collecting and data capturing activities associated with major air accident investigation, the GCAA initial report pointed out.
A team from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) will arrive to UAE today to assist the GCAA team in the crash investigation.
Coordination activities with the regional (ANS) is also continuing in the retrieval of important communications and flight planning material crucial to the successful conclusion of this investigation, the report concluded.
5 September 2010, 1:09 PM The UAE General Civil Aviation Authority announced today the preliminary report on the fatal accident of Boeing 747 - 400 Cargo airplane on 3rd September 2010.
According to this report the UPS6 B744 had departed from Dubai International Airport at 14:53 UTC (6:53pm local time) headed to Koln-Bonn (Cologne) - Germany. At 15:15 UTC (7:15pm local time) information was received from Bahrain that the aircraft was returning to Dubai Airport with a smoke in the cockpit, unable to maintain altitude and requested the airport for landing.
The UAE ATC Centre issued a clearance when aircraft was approximately 40 kilometre from touchdown. The aircraft was high on the approach and was at 8500ft at 24 kilometre from touchdown. It passed the overhead the airfield very high and made a right turn. Position reports were passed the tower as well as advising that all runways were available for the aircraft to land on. The aircraft tracked south west and rapidly lost altitude. At approximately 15:42 UTC (7:42pm local time), radar contact was lost. The B744 crashed in an unpopulated area between the Emirates Road and Al Ain Highway after 50 minutes from departure and after returning back from Bahrain FIR (Flight Information Region), the report added.
The GCAA responded by launching an immediate investigation team who are currently on site collecting evidence, analyzing the initial onsite evidence, coordinating with all of the emergency services to secure the accident site, liaising with the aircraft manufacturer technical specialists and international accident investigation bodies who have been invited to assist the GCAA onsite in the UAE under the provisions of ICAO Annex 13.
The investigation team recovered the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) approximately 6 hours after the accident; the onsite GCAA investigation team is continuing the recovery effort to locate the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR), while investigating the aircraft structure, systems, engines and flight controls as part of the forensic evidence collecting and data capturing activities associated with major air accident investigation, the GCAA initial report pointed out.
A team from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) will arrive to UAE today to assist the GCAA team in the crash investigation.
Coordination activities with the regional (ANS) is also continuing in the retrieval of important communications and flight planning material crucial to the successful conclusion of this investigation, the report concluded.
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Merely an observation, but in the Gulf Friday is (for many people, certainly labourers and menial staff) the only day off in the week, so that probably explains why there were no casualties on the ground.
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Skygoose, on a 744 if you can see the runway before it falls underneath the nose then you can land.
Yes you need to be motivated to do such ie full speedbrake and flap and gear on the limits but you will get in. Precurser is "if you can see the rx" which patently these gentlemen could not.
Conversely, you can drive her in at 364 kts at 2000 ft till 10 nmiles to touchdown and with full speedbrake and flap and gear on the limit grab the glideslope and land with the a/c spooling up around 800 ft at intermediate weights and 400 ft at above max landing weights.
She is a great ship but try doing that previously mentioned blindfolded with a fire up your arse !
I have been on numerous boeing variants for 19 years and I can say without fear nor favour - Get her on the ground asap .... anywhere.....and to hell with the company if it ain't an online port !
Yes you need to be motivated to do such ie full speedbrake and flap and gear on the limits but you will get in. Precurser is "if you can see the rx" which patently these gentlemen could not.
Conversely, you can drive her in at 364 kts at 2000 ft till 10 nmiles to touchdown and with full speedbrake and flap and gear on the limit grab the glideslope and land with the a/c spooling up around 800 ft at intermediate weights and 400 ft at above max landing weights.
She is a great ship but try doing that previously mentioned blindfolded with a fire up your arse !
I have been on numerous boeing variants for 19 years and I can say without fear nor favour - Get her on the ground asap .... anywhere.....and to hell with the company if it ain't an online port !
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HUD vs EVAS
Got both on the jets I fly. HUD is absolutely no help if there is smoke in the cockpit. The HUD produces an image that is created by a projector mounted above and slightly behind the pilot's head. The image is projected onto the combiner (screen) in front of the pilot. Thick smoke would obscure and dilute the image - it would never reach the combiner. Even if it did, if the pilot leaned forward to see the image his/her head would block the projection.
EVAS works. If the aircraft is flyable and you are able, you can fly and land with it. I've practiced it in the sim; filled the sim with smoke to the point I couldn't see the copilot but I could see the instrument panel and outside through the window.
I did not see UPS mentioned on the EVAS website as a user of their product.
Best,
GC
EVAS works. If the aircraft is flyable and you are able, you can fly and land with it. I've practiced it in the sim; filled the sim with smoke to the point I couldn't see the copilot but I could see the instrument panel and outside through the window.
I did not see UPS mentioned on the EVAS website as a user of their product.
Best,
GC
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Just so I'm reading the info previously posted correctly, from the time of first radio contact regarding smoke in the cockpit, to the crash, the elapsed time was 27 minutes?
How many Pax or Cargo Aircraft do we have to lose before they finally mandate the fitting of better equipment that Pilots can use in thick smoke environments? Such as Evas etc
Why don't we have Cameras fitted into the main Deck and Belly Cargo holds of Freighters as well? Why don't we have Cameras fitted in the Belly Cargo holds on Pax A/C ? There have been a lot of false warnings in the past where a Camera would have been a big help.
The technology is there to do this. It's time to spend some money before more people die.
Why don't we have Cameras fitted into the main Deck and Belly Cargo holds of Freighters as well? Why don't we have Cameras fitted in the Belly Cargo holds on Pax A/C ? There have been a lot of false warnings in the past where a Camera would have been a big help.
The technology is there to do this. It's time to spend some money before more people die.
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Indeed, but in the case of SAA295 even this would have been insufficient as the investigation pointed to hazardous material with its own oxygen supply, military propellant? And who knows what is carried on many cargo flights.
My personal bugbear on the subject of fire/smoke in the flightdeck is the continual reluctance to print the checklists in larger print for these particular drills. I've bitched about it for 2 years but nothing has been done. "Yes, great idea....and we'll let you know".....
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I am of the opinion, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the fire must be starved of oxygen to suppress it in an aircraft. That is the only way forward.
Why on earth does the boeing have to fly fully pressurized to start with? With little oxygen and no fresh air coming in the fire would just extinguish itself
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Thermal imaging
Thermal imaging can not be used to get a clear view out the window, but couldn't it be helpful in finding the location of a fire on the flight deck? In case of
http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/1602.pdf
something like
FLUKE|FLUKE TI9|THERMAL IMAGING CAMERA, FLUKE | Farnell United Kingdom
probably would have helped in rapid identification of the faulty switch. Cutting power to the circuit causing the fire as early as possible is very important, because the insulating material used in electrical installations is self extinguishing, but only, if no power is supplied and the fire is still small.
I am only SLF, but going through a checklist that requires you to shut down one source of power after the other and wait each time for the smoke to clear to me as an engineer sounds archaic. Waiting seems to be the last thing you want to do in such a situation.
http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/1602.pdf
something like
FLUKE|FLUKE TI9|THERMAL IMAGING CAMERA, FLUKE | Farnell United Kingdom
probably would have helped in rapid identification of the faulty switch. Cutting power to the circuit causing the fire as early as possible is very important, because the insulating material used in electrical installations is self extinguishing, but only, if no power is supplied and the fire is still small.
I am only SLF, but going through a checklist that requires you to shut down one source of power after the other and wait each time for the smoke to clear to me as an engineer sounds archaic. Waiting seems to be the last thing you want to do in such a situation.
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vovachan
Perhaps because the pilots prefer to fly in shirtsleeves rather than space suits.... Maybe you would like to try 11+ hours wearing an oxygen mask 
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All as reported here 8500ft at 24 km (13nm), 7000ft at 6nm , 4000ft at 1nm and crash site is approx 11.5nm beyond DXB... all in a straight line apart from last turn to the right...
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Why does the cargo hold need to be pressurised? Just think a bit about the cargo carried. You can't very well take up a load anything to have it freeze, expand, burst, etc. It could be organic in nature as well..
We're starting to get into science fiction here. What is really needed is fire supression via injectable chemicals and foam. Fedex has developed such a system. In the interim, a smoke displacement hood may have saved this crew which, for a billion-dollar company wouldn't amount to pocket change. What you htave here is penny pinching done by actuaries in the bean counting deparment which runs the flight operations group at most airlines.
We're starting to get into science fiction here. What is really needed is fire supression via injectable chemicals and foam. Fedex has developed such a system. In the interim, a smoke displacement hood may have saved this crew which, for a billion-dollar company wouldn't amount to pocket change. What you htave here is penny pinching done by actuaries in the bean counting deparment which runs the flight operations group at most airlines.