Age 70 for international pilots?
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Does he look at company records, GD's, or peek at the guys passport to see if he's over 60 to select a behavioural mode, or is it simply on appearance or capability?
A CD arrival = constant descent. Leave the holding fix and don't level off from that point to touchdown. Something my company says we do a poor job of complying with.
As to my choice of WB F/O vs NB Capt. I did fly Capt on both the Boeing and the Bus for over about 10 years. However, thanks to age 65 and recession we had surpluss pilots. My choice work 18 days a month as NB Capt or 9 to 11 days a month as WB FO for basically the same pay. While I know that is a decision the power hungry gummer crowd can't comprehend since you guys have not suffered any setbacks during your career. For you guys it has only been upward movement and no stagnation or reversal. It was an easy decision for me. I like my time at home and don't define my life as being an airline pilot like many of the antiques I work with. Also, being in the same came cockpit with the thieves of 65 allows me to bust their ego bubbles at every opportunity. Appears many have their testicles locked in a jar by their wives at home. Coming to work they hope to exert some type, any type of power they can muster. Ultimately they will be off on a tangent and wrong, again. It would be sad to watch if it was for someone which I had even a modicum of sympathy. Instead it makes for some great laughs with the rest of the crew in the "debrief" at the hotel, while the old man is still roaming the hallways trying to find his room.
Ah the things that make this job fun.
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I think you should go and lie down in a darkened room, my friend, and take a psychiatrist along with you for a little chat.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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since you guys have not suffered any setbacks during your career.
No setbacks indeed, so two substantial carriers, (UK), going bust over my head and having to revert to the RHS once, due 'cut backs', don't count then? Wake up and grow up. The behavior you are so proud of on the flight deck is worthy of a seriously spoiled little child having a tantrum.
the power hungry gummer crowd can't comprehend
Last edited by parabellum; 15th Aug 2010 at 10:05.
There is nothing termed a CD arrival at LHR. A LAM3A arrival, maybe, but not a CD arrival. However, there is a continuous descent noise abatement procedure so I guess you were referring to that. Maybe the guys in the other seat were wondering what you are on about.
I expect that CRM training featured at some time in your career, so its a shame that the principles of teamwork seem to have passed you by. Your antipathy and lack of support for the older captain is downright dangerous and completely unprofessional. Nobody is perfect, not even you, and your attitude is likely to make you and the guy unfortunate enough to fly with you another accident statistic.
Its also a completely arrogant assumption that the over 60 pilot never had a career setback or stagnation. The airline industry has been through frequent recessions, several before you appeared on the scene, so your present setbacks are nothing new. Get a life.
I expect that CRM training featured at some time in your career, so its a shame that the principles of teamwork seem to have passed you by. Your antipathy and lack of support for the older captain is downright dangerous and completely unprofessional. Nobody is perfect, not even you, and your attitude is likely to make you and the guy unfortunate enough to fly with you another accident statistic.
Its also a completely arrogant assumption that the over 60 pilot never had a career setback or stagnation. The airline industry has been through frequent recessions, several before you appeared on the scene, so your present setbacks are nothing new. Get a life.
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You disappoint me, Lambourne!...
I gave you the chance to give us a good reason for your f/o v Captain choice... and you blew it!
You're obviously psychologically unfit to be in command of anything, let alone a high speed heavy jet aircraft!
Go away, Junior, get some treatment!
You're not a pilot...
you're a goose!!
PS: Aren't the idiots like Lamington the things that make prune fun?
I gave you the chance to give us a good reason for your f/o v Captain choice... and you blew it!
You're obviously psychologically unfit to be in command of anything, let alone a high speed heavy jet aircraft!
Go away, Junior, get some treatment!
You're not a pilot...
you're a goose!!
PS: Aren't the idiots like Lamington the things that make prune fun?
Last edited by obie2; 15th Aug 2010 at 12:08.
Once upon a time, society taught respect for one's elders.
Whilst it is only reasonable for there to be a natural throughput of pilots, airlines will invariably prefer to retain rather than to recruit. Particularly should they ever have to face up to the responsibility of actually training their future workforce.
As for the childish comments made by lambourne, I can only surmise that the 'gummers', of whom he is so openly contemptuous, have considerably more patience and tolerance than he does.
Going out of your way to cause friction on the flight deck is utterly unnacceptable and wholly dangerous; this idiot should be removed from flying duties forthwith.
Whilst it is only reasonable for there to be a natural throughput of pilots, airlines will invariably prefer to retain rather than to recruit. Particularly should they ever have to face up to the responsibility of actually training their future workforce.
As for the childish comments made by lambourne, I can only surmise that the 'gummers', of whom he is so openly contemptuous, have considerably more patience and tolerance than he does.
Going out of your way to cause friction on the flight deck is utterly unnacceptable and wholly dangerous; this idiot should be removed from flying duties forthwith.
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The bizarre world of lambourne
Methinks that F/O Lambourne has recently failed his command course or sim check or maybe came last in the egg and spoon race at the nursery school he attends.
Light the blue touchpaper and stand back
Light the blue touchpaper and stand back
Last edited by Fangio; 15th Aug 2010 at 11:45.
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Just to chime in with my two cents worth.......
ALL the captains I flew with (part 135 / corporate, medium/heavy turbo prop and light jet) were at LEAST 10 years older than I. Everyday I flew with them I LEARNED something. Not to say that there weren't some who thought they were 'sky gods'....but THEY were the minority!! The attitude I've been reading here is absolutely incredible to me, and I really don't understand it....last I knew, didn't the airlines- especially the larger carriers - do psych tests?? Does "F/O Lambourne" REALLY think his 'gummer' Captains aren't reporting his behavior?? How long does he think HIS career is likely to last?
Some of "F/O Lambourne's" comments have revealed a down right hazard to flight safety....and I hope to God neither my family OR I are EVER on a flight with him!
ALL the captains I flew with (part 135 / corporate, medium/heavy turbo prop and light jet) were at LEAST 10 years older than I. Everyday I flew with them I LEARNED something. Not to say that there weren't some who thought they were 'sky gods'....but THEY were the minority!! The attitude I've been reading here is absolutely incredible to me, and I really don't understand it....last I knew, didn't the airlines- especially the larger carriers - do psych tests?? Does "F/O Lambourne" REALLY think his 'gummer' Captains aren't reporting his behavior?? How long does he think HIS career is likely to last?
Some of "F/O Lambourne's" comments have revealed a down right hazard to flight safety....and I hope to God neither my family OR I are EVER on a flight with him!
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Having worked as a TRI/TRE for over 25 years, I have trained and checked pilots of all ages. From this, and from personal experience, the combination of skill and experience is at it's highest in the 40's. There is no doubt that reactions slow with age, and this accelerates when over 60.
I was fortunate, when checking pilots who were over 60, that most of them had started at a very high level of ability, so any slowing had no effect on their ability to pass a check. A small number, who had started at a lower level caused a few problems.
In my own case, I stopped flying six months before my sixtieth birthday. I had no problem passing checks or medicals, but I was finding that the long night flights and the timechange were having a far greater effect the older that I got, and I was concerned that this might eventually affect my ability. Much better to quit while you're ahead.
I think that we should cut lambourne some slack. There are many people who feel this way but don't have the forum to express their views. After I had spent 20 years in the RHS, I would have been rather upset if they had raised the retirement age just before I got my command.
Although I don't agree with the way that lambourne says that he is behaving, I don't think that it impacts on flight safety. Any pilot aged over 60 has been in the industry long enough to be able to cope with this attitude without losing any sleep. I would have had no worries about flying with him/her, and would have been happy to make my own tea.
Dave
I was fortunate, when checking pilots who were over 60, that most of them had started at a very high level of ability, so any slowing had no effect on their ability to pass a check. A small number, who had started at a lower level caused a few problems.
In my own case, I stopped flying six months before my sixtieth birthday. I had no problem passing checks or medicals, but I was finding that the long night flights and the timechange were having a far greater effect the older that I got, and I was concerned that this might eventually affect my ability. Much better to quit while you're ahead.
I think that we should cut lambourne some slack. There are many people who feel this way but don't have the forum to express their views. After I had spent 20 years in the RHS, I would have been rather upset if they had raised the retirement age just before I got my command.
Although I don't agree with the way that lambourne says that he is behaving, I don't think that it impacts on flight safety. Any pilot aged over 60 has been in the industry long enough to be able to cope with this attitude without losing any sleep. I would have had no worries about flying with him/her, and would have been happy to make my own tea.
Dave
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Once upon a time, society taught respect for one's elders.
Whilst it is only reasonable for there to be a natural throughput of pilots, airlines will invariably prefer to retain rather than to recruit. Particularly should they ever have to face up to the responsibility of actually training their future workforce.
As for the childish comments made by lambourne, I can only surmise that the 'gummers', of whom he is so openly contemptuous, have considerably more patience and tolerance than he does.
Going out of your way to cause friction on the flight deck is utterly unnacceptable and wholly dangerous; this idiot should be removed from flying duties forthwith.
Whilst it is only reasonable for there to be a natural throughput of pilots, airlines will invariably prefer to retain rather than to recruit. Particularly should they ever have to face up to the responsibility of actually training their future workforce.
As for the childish comments made by lambourne, I can only surmise that the 'gummers', of whom he is so openly contemptuous, have considerably more patience and tolerance than he does.
Going out of your way to cause friction on the flight deck is utterly unnacceptable and wholly dangerous; this idiot should be removed from flying duties forthwith.
Should I be unlucky enough to have a guy like this as a First Officer, he would be booted out on his ear at the first opportunity....make no mistake.
And, what's more...the company would back me up one hundred percent.
Some of "F/O Lambourne's" comments have revealed a down right hazard to flight safety....and I hope to God neither my family OR I are EVER on a flight with him!
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Here's a viewpoint that some might find irrelevant:
As a passenger, I have always been reassured to see a Captain aged around fifty with a FO aged around thirty.
This seems to me to represent the ideal mix of experience, maturity and current skills.
I would not be happy to see an elderly Captain in charge of my flight.
As a passenger, I have always been reassured to see a Captain aged around fifty with a FO aged around thirty.
This seems to me to represent the ideal mix of experience, maturity and current skills.
I would not be happy to see an elderly Captain in charge of my flight.
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f/o lamington has been shown to be nothing more than fluffy cake, coco and fluffy coconut with a major head problem! He needs help.
He has, however, hijacked this thread and is probably having a laugh at our expense.
Could I suggest that we just ignore this loser and continue the debate re retirement age in a more civilized manner?
He has, however, hijacked this thread and is probably having a laugh at our expense.
Could I suggest that we just ignore this loser and continue the debate re retirement age in a more civilized manner?
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Raising the retirement age to 65 was a good and timely decision.
In the future it makes sense to review this age further upwards in view of life expectancy. If this delays the promotions of F/Os, so what? You'll get it back at the other end anyway.
The age change is good for us as a group. It benefits everybody long term.
When I started out in commercial aviation in my mid-20s I had the privilege of flying with guys that were approaching 60. These guys were knowledgeable, cool characters who were completely unfazed by anything thrown at them. It taught me the value of experience.
Those that oppose the higher retirement age are only thinking short term.
In the future it makes sense to review this age further upwards in view of life expectancy. If this delays the promotions of F/Os, so what? You'll get it back at the other end anyway.
The age change is good for us as a group. It benefits everybody long term.
When I started out in commercial aviation in my mid-20s I had the privilege of flying with guys that were approaching 60. These guys were knowledgeable, cool characters who were completely unfazed by anything thrown at them. It taught me the value of experience.
Those that oppose the higher retirement age are only thinking short term.
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When I started out in commercial aviation in my mid-20s I had the privilege of flying with guys that were approaching 60. These guys were knowledgeable, cool characters who were completely unfazed by anything thrown at them. It taught me the value of experience.
If a guy has the enthusiasm and desire to continue in the job 'till 70 and can pass a medical then where is the problem. As for a longer wait for command, well I'm happy to wait my turn. It's not like a command is a birth right anyway...
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Well said.
Should I be unlucky enough to have a guy like this as a First Officer, he would be booted out on his ear at the first opportunity....make no mistake.
And, what's more...the company would back me up one hundred percent.
Should I be unlucky enough to have a guy like this as a First Officer, he would be booted out on his ear at the first opportunity....make no mistake.
And, what's more...the company would back me up one hundred percent.
Please tell me you are going to have a better argument than that. When you go to the Chief Pilot and tell him you cost the company a few extra thousand dollars by having to pay TWO pilots for the same trip. He is going to want to know the details. Telling him your feeble, senile sense of self worth has not been acknowledged and the other kids at school don't let you play ball, may not make him appreciate your uniqueness either. Nice one old man, now that is going to make you look the fool. Also, if you are going to toss me from a trip can you make sure to do it on a weekend?
With any luck in 849 days you guys will start retiring again. That is the ones that actually live that long. Just read about one of our over 60 pilots almost croaking on a European layover last week. Almost 300 passengers inconvenienced by this guy due to the cancellation of the return trip. With any luck that was his last flight. Nice way to leave the profession, on a stretcher! Perhaps if more of you old guys start dropping at work, it will help keep any rumblings of Age 70 to rest, or should we say bury any thought of a change or my favorite ***throw dirt on raising it higher***
Had a nice chat with a fellow F/O about the rumored increase. His take was spot on. Said that he heard you old gompers were trying to organize an effort to increase the age. The only problem was every time you guys called a meeting. No one could remember what it was called for and you could never get a quorum due to over half the guys standing in the latrine willing something to happen.
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There is nothing termed a CD arrival at LHR
Of course with the level of compliance the over 60 crowd have for this procedure it seems to be wasted pages and resources. Is this the example we should all follow? Is this one of the learning experiences I should be soaking up? All I have learned from these guys is that greed is good, flying skills suck after 60, complying with company regulations and FAR's appears to be optional.
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Hi lambourne
Enjoyed reading your stuff.
I’m an old dinosaur and, I guess, also an old “gummer”. I fly (at my pleasure) for an elephants' graveyard of an airline (south asian national carrier) and will do so until I’m 65, in eighteen months time. However, I have the immense privilege of being demographically and contractually grouped with a wonderful band of similar ex-pat fossils, whose achievements, records, professional skills (I double crew occasionally) and sheer humour, humanity and humility leave me in awe. These guys will run any mile to help guys on the way up and will proffer (if asked) the most apposite, accurate and heartfelt advice, to assist the next generation (our pleasure, …really).
Ok, maybe they (we) have a few ex-wives, lawyers and children (think disabled – either as very young kids or as valiant young men in recent wars) to support and need to squeeze the most out of an earning career and an industry that seeks our experience (25,000 – 30,000 heavy jet hours), wisdom and skill. These guys are solid, patriotic, reliable and the bedrock of their varied societies. They are, please, not to be trivialised or denigrated but to be admired for the providers and constant troopers that they are. Please, therefore, take a step back, gulp a little humility and realise the value of the senior colleagues you belittle.
You may be interested to know that the carrier we serve, recently staved off two catastrophes following the intervention of two “gummers”, rostered as P2 on double crew operations. First case involved P1 erroneously selecting Auto Pilot at the start of the T/O roll when auto thrust did not engage. P1 seemed not to notice until ex-pat P2’s screams to disengage eventually got through to him just before VR. Second case concerned a very heavy weight T/O (17 hour flight) when P1 disengaged auto thrust (paddle switches - for reasons unknown) following a low-level altitude capture. Subsequent ATC climb and turn instructions were executed by the auto flight system, minus auto thrust. Net result, stick shaker at around 1000 AGL, just as ex-pat P2 had unstrapped and firewalled the thrust levers prior to a fully developed stall.
Could be the old timers can still cut it?
Enjoyed reading your stuff.
I’m an old dinosaur and, I guess, also an old “gummer”. I fly (at my pleasure) for an elephants' graveyard of an airline (south asian national carrier) and will do so until I’m 65, in eighteen months time. However, I have the immense privilege of being demographically and contractually grouped with a wonderful band of similar ex-pat fossils, whose achievements, records, professional skills (I double crew occasionally) and sheer humour, humanity and humility leave me in awe. These guys will run any mile to help guys on the way up and will proffer (if asked) the most apposite, accurate and heartfelt advice, to assist the next generation (our pleasure, …really).
Ok, maybe they (we) have a few ex-wives, lawyers and children (think disabled – either as very young kids or as valiant young men in recent wars) to support and need to squeeze the most out of an earning career and an industry that seeks our experience (25,000 – 30,000 heavy jet hours), wisdom and skill. These guys are solid, patriotic, reliable and the bedrock of their varied societies. They are, please, not to be trivialised or denigrated but to be admired for the providers and constant troopers that they are. Please, therefore, take a step back, gulp a little humility and realise the value of the senior colleagues you belittle.
You may be interested to know that the carrier we serve, recently staved off two catastrophes following the intervention of two “gummers”, rostered as P2 on double crew operations. First case involved P1 erroneously selecting Auto Pilot at the start of the T/O roll when auto thrust did not engage. P1 seemed not to notice until ex-pat P2’s screams to disengage eventually got through to him just before VR. Second case concerned a very heavy weight T/O (17 hour flight) when P1 disengaged auto thrust (paddle switches - for reasons unknown) following a low-level altitude capture. Subsequent ATC climb and turn instructions were executed by the auto flight system, minus auto thrust. Net result, stick shaker at around 1000 AGL, just as ex-pat P2 had unstrapped and firewalled the thrust levers prior to a fully developed stall.
Could be the old timers can still cut it?
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Lambourne,
I for one really enjoy your posts! You are certainly correct that cognitive skills begin to deteriorate with age, sometimes slowly and sometimes fast.
What I have observed is the ones who want to stay past 60 are classified into 2 groups.
Group 1: 3 ex's, 3 sets of kids, and no money.
Group 2: no retirement skills, they define their lives on their supposedly superior cockpit skills.
Take a look at the MD-11 accident in RUH and hear all the sages trying to bring temp and unfamiliarity as an excuse.
Give me a Capt in his late 40's early 50's who is willing to listen and work together any day.
When they advocate dive and drive on non precision app's, just reaffirms their inability to adapt to tech changes in new generation A/C.
I for one really enjoy your posts! You are certainly correct that cognitive skills begin to deteriorate with age, sometimes slowly and sometimes fast.
What I have observed is the ones who want to stay past 60 are classified into 2 groups.
Group 1: 3 ex's, 3 sets of kids, and no money.
Group 2: no retirement skills, they define their lives on their supposedly superior cockpit skills.
Take a look at the MD-11 accident in RUH and hear all the sages trying to bring temp and unfamiliarity as an excuse.
Give me a Capt in his late 40's early 50's who is willing to listen and work together any day.
When they advocate dive and drive on non precision app's, just reaffirms their inability to adapt to tech changes in new generation A/C.
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Thanks poina. Feel it is ripe time for the majority to speak about what age 65 has done ro this profession. I agree with your grouping. After many years of continuing to pay the price for the gummers mistakes in life (ex-wives, Bad business decisions, etc) enough is enough. I'm tired of having to change their diapers every time they poop their "life" pants.
The only good thing to come from this, is many of my fellow pilots vow to never act or treat the job like these clowns have. If anything it has made more of us want to reitre early or at 60, so we don't wind up hanging on like these miserable losers.
The only good thing to come from this, is many of my fellow pilots vow to never act or treat the job like these clowns have. If anything it has made more of us want to reitre early or at 60, so we don't wind up hanging on like these miserable losers.