Age 70 for international pilots?
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Have to agree with parabellum re the Australian Gen 'X' and 'Y' and housing. Start out with a three bedroom, one bathroom box in not the best suburb like the Boomers did? No way - it has to be the McMansion with home theatre and everything that opens and shuts - now - and a mortgage they'll never be able to repay.
Not sure what that has to do with the topic of this thread, but I for one wouldn't want to still be flying back of the clock long haul at age 70. I wouldn't want to be doing it at 65! However, I know there are quite a few out there who can expect to live quite a few more years who, thanks at least in part to the craziness that we have seen overtake our (once) profession with the introduction of deregulation, don't have the wherewithal to retire at 65.
If some studies I've seen are to be believed, the older you wait to retire, the shorter you'll survive in retirement, so there's a real conundrum facing us there, isn't there? Retire early and you won't have enough money to live on. Extend your working years and your money will last - if only because you'll die earlier. Screwed whichever way you go - which is a situation most airline pilots would be very familiar with!
Not sure what that has to do with the topic of this thread, but I for one wouldn't want to still be flying back of the clock long haul at age 70. I wouldn't want to be doing it at 65! However, I know there are quite a few out there who can expect to live quite a few more years who, thanks at least in part to the craziness that we have seen overtake our (once) profession with the introduction of deregulation, don't have the wherewithal to retire at 65.
If some studies I've seen are to be believed, the older you wait to retire, the shorter you'll survive in retirement, so there's a real conundrum facing us there, isn't there? Retire early and you won't have enough money to live on. Extend your working years and your money will last - if only because you'll die earlier. Screwed whichever way you go - which is a situation most airline pilots would be very familiar with!
Trash du Blanc
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Is this the disease of the day? To demand a fast track to everything, without putting forth even 20% of the time and effort that the previous generation had to struggle through, whilst simultaneously demanding the same pay + adjustments?
So how old were you when you made left seat, then? I'll be fifty....
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huck
when I hired on with one of the best airlines in the country (balance sheet wise), I was told on numerous occasions that I would upgrade to captain in about five years.
this was in 88.
well, we saw 9 passengers on our planes during the first gulf war and huge cutbacks...even paying off boeing to get out of a contract for planes and it took me 11 years to upgrade...oh and after 911 more furloughs and cutbacks so after 22 years I would be a junior copilot.
and I'm told my career expectations were terrible.
but my career expectations upon hiring were better than any other airline in the country.
blame me for wars, terrorists...sure, why not?
when I hired on with one of the best airlines in the country (balance sheet wise), I was told on numerous occasions that I would upgrade to captain in about five years.
this was in 88.
well, we saw 9 passengers on our planes during the first gulf war and huge cutbacks...even paying off boeing to get out of a contract for planes and it took me 11 years to upgrade...oh and after 911 more furloughs and cutbacks so after 22 years I would be a junior copilot.
and I'm told my career expectations were terrible.
but my career expectations upon hiring were better than any other airline in the country.
blame me for wars, terrorists...sure, why not?
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Quote:
Is this the disease of the day? To demand a fast track to everything, without putting forth even 20% of the time and effort that the previous generation had to struggle through, whilst simultaneously demanding the same pay + adjustments?
What age were the captains who retired in order to make way for the hiring and upgrade of the "previous generation" who feel so entitled to 5 years of this generations advancement and employment opportunity?
Is this the disease of the day? To demand a fast track to everything, without putting forth even 20% of the time and effort that the previous generation had to struggle through, whilst simultaneously demanding the same pay + adjustments?
Is this the disease of the day? To demand a fast track to everything, without putting forth even 20% of the time and effort that the previous generation had to struggle through, whilst simultaneously demanding the same pay + adjustments?
A question then.What age were the captains who retired in order to make way for the hiring and upgrade of the "previous generation" who feel so entitled to 5 years of this generations advancement and employment opportunity?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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The original retirement age for airline pilots in both the USA and the UK was 65 until sometime in the late seventies or early eighties when it was arbitrarily changed to 60 without any consultation with the workforce. In the USA it was said that the then CEO of AA wanted rid of the older guys on high salary and pensions etc. and a friend in the FAA obliged, don't know how true that is.
In the UK it was just a statement issued overnight, done deal. I was obliged to retire from a very good airline job at the age of 60 and I resent it very much. Probably wouldn't have gone to sixty five but a couple or three more years would have been good. I think 70 is pushing it a bit too far, but 65 is just getting back to the original 'normal' retiring age.
In the UK it was just a statement issued overnight, done deal. I was obliged to retire from a very good airline job at the age of 60 and I resent it very much. Probably wouldn't have gone to sixty five but a couple or three more years would have been good. I think 70 is pushing it a bit too far, but 65 is just getting back to the original 'normal' retiring age.
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How good are the quacks after all at finding the hidden weakness that is ready to incapacitate without warning? Seems to me that if you survive past 60 you probably have been taking good care of yourself, diet, exercise, no beer belly, etc etc.
Anyway, my AME agrees that women last longer than men by aprox 10 years, so women should be allowed 10 extra years on the flight deck........
Anyway, my AME agrees that women last longer than men by aprox 10 years, so women should be allowed 10 extra years on the flight deck........
Trash du Blanc
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sometime in the late seventies or early eighties
But all the major airlines already had company-imposed age limits of 60. The FAA just codified them into regulation.
I certainly understand your resentment. But understand that EVERY step in your career - the day you were hired, the day you upgraded, the day you went to the widebodies - happened five years earlier for you because of the old law.
Would you honestly choose to have your entire career timeline slid five years to the right?
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Huck said
Do tell!
So how old were you when you made left seat, then? I'll be fifty....
I was fifty before I got the left seat in a major.
I was 27 when I got the call From American.
The interview was canceled due to the Oil Embargo.
I was assured that I would be called when the hiring started again.
I wasn't. Did you know that the majors wouldn't hire anyone over 31?
It was a very long time to the DL left seat, and I got there purely due
to luck. Right place-right time.
In 1977 I was too old to get hired.
In 2006 I was too old to fly.
Just think Huck; if it goes to age 70, you have 20 years in the left seat.
Do tell!
So how old were you when you made left seat, then? I'll be fifty....
I was fifty before I got the left seat in a major.
I was 27 when I got the call From American.
The interview was canceled due to the Oil Embargo.
I was assured that I would be called when the hiring started again.
I wasn't. Did you know that the majors wouldn't hire anyone over 31?
It was a very long time to the DL left seat, and I got there purely due
to luck. Right place-right time.
In 1977 I was too old to get hired.
In 2006 I was too old to fly.
Just think Huck; if it goes to age 70, you have 20 years in the left seat.
Trash du Blanc
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That's not accurate.
If it goes to 70, I'll have to wait to 55 then.
The group that is PIC now is the exceptionally lucky group that will get 5 more years of PIC time. No one got it before them, no one (including me) will get it after them.
If it goes to 70, I'll have to wait to 55 then.
The group that is PIC now is the exceptionally lucky group that will get 5 more years of PIC time. No one got it before them, no one (including me) will get it after them.
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Huck
Three ALPA represented airlines imposed the age 60 retirement. Prior to that there was no retirement age mandated. ALPA took the issue to arbitration, and Won! C.R. Smith, CEO of American took his problem to Gen. Pete Quesada ret., the first Administator to the new FAA. General Quesada fixed his problem. Gen. Quesada was rewarded with a position of the Board of American after he left the FAA.
March 15, 1960.
But all the major airlines already had company-imposed age limits of 60. The FAA just codified them into regulation.
I certainly understand your resentment. But understand that EVERY step in your career - the day you were hired, the day you upgraded, the day you went to the widebodies - happened five years earlier for you because of the old law.
But all the major airlines already had company-imposed age limits of 60. The FAA just codified them into regulation.
I certainly understand your resentment. But understand that EVERY step in your career - the day you were hired, the day you upgraded, the day you went to the widebodies - happened five years earlier for you because of the old law.
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Don't forget, in the U.S. it really wasn't an age 60 retirement age. It was an age 60 LICENSING age.
EDIT: You could not fly certain types of aircraft in certain operations after age 60. (basically International Airline Operations)
EDIT: You could not fly certain types of aircraft in certain operations after age 60. (basically International Airline Operations)
Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 6th Aug 2010 at 23:34.
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Here is the present FAA limitation from 14 CFR 61.3(j):
(j) Age limitation for certain operations
(1) Age limitation. No person who holds a pilot certificate issued under this part may serve as a pilot on a civil airplane of U.S. registry in the following operations if the person has reached his or her 65th birthday:
(i) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than nine passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat;
(iii) Nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iv) Scheduled international air services, or nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire, in airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations
(1) Age limitation. No person who holds a pilot certificate issued under this part may serve as a pilot on a civil airplane of U.S. registry in the following operations if the person has reached his or her 65th birthday:
(i) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than nine passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat;
(iii) Nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iv) Scheduled international air services, or nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire, in airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations
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Does that mean that Domestic Airline pilots can fly past age 65? What age do Southwest Airlines pilots retire at?
Theoretically, could a pilot for an international airline continue to fly if he was restricted to Domestic flights only?
Theoretically, could a pilot for an international airline continue to fly if he was restricted to Domestic flights only?
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This is a specific Part 121 / 135 rule. There is nothing to keep you from flying a B747 at age 65+ if you are a Part 91 or Part 125 operator. The French might give you some grief on the 125, but the fact is you can continue flying until your 100+ if your not doing it under 121/135 Ops.
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Well, if that's true Spooky, and I don't doubt what you say, not knowing the Reg's as well as you do...
Isn't that just plain stupid?
100+ and still flying on domestic RPT services!
Gimme a break!
Isn't that just plain stupid?
100+ and still flying on domestic RPT services!
Gimme a break!
