Age 70 for international pilots?
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Maybe even 70 is too early?
Older adults are better at decision-making than young adults
And all those long nights out of bed?
Older Adults Less Affected By Sleep Deprivation Than Younger Adults During Cognitive Performance
Older adults are better at decision-making than young adults
And all those long nights out of bed?
Older Adults Less Affected By Sleep Deprivation Than Younger Adults During Cognitive Performance
Join Date: Aug 2011
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over reaction
ok I'm new to pprune, but this topic is relevant to my situation. after a career change I've just started my flying career at age 40. I think what some people aren't realising is that it makes no difference if they age is raised. if the age goes up by 5 years it may take you 5 more years to get a command, but then you will also have that extra 5 years IN command.
if they change the medical to examine age related issues and you can pass then you should be able to keep going to 70.
anyways, that's my 2 cents worth on this topic
if they change the medical to examine age related issues and you can pass then you should be able to keep going to 70.
anyways, that's my 2 cents worth on this topic
Have I missed some new evidence-based Medical discoveries?
Age 60 was set based on the then experience of medics around the world of heart attacks.
Not so long ago, this same evidence-based approach was used to extend the age to 65.
There has been no evidence so far that the age can be extended to 70. I suspect that some schedules flown by some airlines might hasten a reduction back to 60, not an increase to 70.
This law is not there for the benefit of folk who like their job, it is there for the benefit of customers, who have no desire to die just because some pilot wants to carry on flying.
End of.
Age 60 was set based on the then experience of medics around the world of heart attacks.
Not so long ago, this same evidence-based approach was used to extend the age to 65.
There has been no evidence so far that the age can be extended to 70. I suspect that some schedules flown by some airlines might hasten a reduction back to 60, not an increase to 70.
This law is not there for the benefit of folk who like their job, it is there for the benefit of customers, who have no desire to die just because some pilot wants to carry on flying.
End of.
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Air New Zealand & QF No Age Limit.
I hear there are moves afoot for there being no age limit across the board. ICAO are looking at the operations in Australia and NZ. Interesting Thread.
Air New Zealand's elderly pilots 'refusing to quit'
Air New Zealand's elderly pilots 'refusing to quit'
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What Law are you talking about? Many countries have no maximum age for Airline Transport Licence holders, and even ICAO has no maximum age for First Officers.
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Old Uns and Licences and medicals
This query about age and hearts was explained to me by my AME when he commented that the current medical would be my last
The issue of a medical is based on a CAA risk assessment taking into account a number of factors
One of those factors is the possibility of unknown/undiscovered problems causing incapacitation
Many of the risk factors can be related to age. The unknown heart defect exists at all ages but the risk of that problem causing incapacitation without warning increases with age
My only experience of a pilot heart problem in forty five years was my young FO at Wick who had a undiscovered congenital problem which showed after a very pleasant meal out. We each had a beer and similar meals except he had union rings with his steak so that's clearly
the answer
The issue of a medical is based on a CAA risk assessment taking into account a number of factors
One of those factors is the possibility of unknown/undiscovered problems causing incapacitation
Many of the risk factors can be related to age. The unknown heart defect exists at all ages but the risk of that problem causing incapacitation without warning increases with age
My only experience of a pilot heart problem in forty five years was my young FO at Wick who had a undiscovered congenital problem which showed after a very pleasant meal out. We each had a beer and similar meals except he had union rings with his steak so that's clearly
the answer
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It's not the heart attacks that are the problem, it's what's going on between their ears and the prognosis is not good.
I've flown with F/O's in their late 60's and they take a bit of spoon-feeding. Lack of concentration, falling asleep at extremely short notice, pushing the wrong buttons because their eyesight is failing and some are too tight to get some decent progressive glasses, get them at the 100 yen shop instead.
Report it? No thanks, don't need the drama.
To be honest I can't fathom how some pass their checks. A couple have been pushed out recently, an ignominious way to finish your career.
I've flown with F/O's in their late 60's and they take a bit of spoon-feeding. Lack of concentration, falling asleep at extremely short notice, pushing the wrong buttons because their eyesight is failing and some are too tight to get some decent progressive glasses, get them at the 100 yen shop instead.
Report it? No thanks, don't need the drama.
To be honest I can't fathom how some pass their checks. A couple have been pushed out recently, an ignominious way to finish your career.
Last edited by skol; 31st Aug 2011 at 00:25.
I have now reached the grand old age of 'heinz varieties' and thus the end is now in sight. I have been paid to fly aircraft for thirty five years and thus have had a pretty good run. Some poor decisions in the past mean that whilst my retirement income will be ok it nontheless pales when compared to some of my contempories. Like most, my eyesight is not what is was - too old for laser surgery (even if it were approved ) so reading glasses it is - hearing still fine and not overweight, well not much anyway ! I cannot afford to go at 60 but will certainly not go on to 65 or even close to it but the prospect of someone from the crewing department calling me to fly a deep night in my mid-sixties fills me with gloom and its not going to happen.
We have a generation of First Officers in many airlines who are being held back by the ever-changing goalposts and the slavish adherence to seniority.
Many of these guys are ready for Command courses now but what can they do - hang on where they are for ever and a day consoling themselves about their pensions or take a chance and move to a new operator where command chances may be improved ? A good First Officer with a strong training background and relevant experience should be ready for command after 3-5 years in the role - obviously some take longer than others and sadly some never quite make the grade; the good ones however, now have to sit on their hands year after year losing interest and professional pride in what they do from time to time - inevitably.
I do not buy the argument that 'senior' pilots, well into their sixties, on very strong financial packages, have no responsibility to their younger colleagues.
This will be the last generation of pilots who retire on mega-pensions, multiple homes, aircraft, boats etc !
We have a generation of First Officers in many airlines who are being held back by the ever-changing goalposts and the slavish adherence to seniority.
Many of these guys are ready for Command courses now but what can they do - hang on where they are for ever and a day consoling themselves about their pensions or take a chance and move to a new operator where command chances may be improved ? A good First Officer with a strong training background and relevant experience should be ready for command after 3-5 years in the role - obviously some take longer than others and sadly some never quite make the grade; the good ones however, now have to sit on their hands year after year losing interest and professional pride in what they do from time to time - inevitably.
I do not buy the argument that 'senior' pilots, well into their sixties, on very strong financial packages, have no responsibility to their younger colleagues.
This will be the last generation of pilots who retire on mega-pensions, multiple homes, aircraft, boats etc !
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I am 67 and fly a four-engine jet for a government agency, and I'm not the only one there in that age range. Why do I do it? Because I enjoy it, I am still capable and they value my experience. I have a nice airline retirement, so money isn't a motivating issue. The money is just icing on the cake. Being forced to walk away from what I enjoy just because a junior guy wants my seat 
is assinine.
is assinine.
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I am 67 and fly a four-engine jet for a government agency, and I'm not the only one there in that age range. Why do I do it? Because I enjoy it, I am still capable and they value my experience. I have a nice airline retirement, so money isn't a motivating issue. The money is just icing on the cake. Being forced to walk away from what I enjoy just because a junior guy wants my seat is assinine.
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70? WOW!, Some folks at my workplace are already looking like pitted prunes, and they're just over 60, hell there's even a guy who looks really dated and he just turned 50, I think the no age limit is a big No-No, especially if the decision to hang the old cleats is left to the pilot him/herself, there will always be pilots arranging checkrides, groundschools, medical exams, you name it, remember what happened in india and china a few months back regarding some pilots's licences and logbooks? If they did that just to get the jobs at entry level, imagine what the old farts will do to keep flying and taking home the big paychecks?, I have flown with guys who have been ready to pack it in for a while back but they haven't just because of the paycheck, this stopped being a flying matter a long time ago.
Last edited by AVApilot; 1st Sep 2011 at 00:40.
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From Bigmouth: How did you get to where you are today? Due to seniority, or due to superior skills, experience, training and/or luck? If the latter, then stay where you are as long as you want. If due to the former, then hold up your end of the deal and make way for the next guy.
I was chosen in my current status for my reputation and experience. Age was immaterial. Should I still walk away, telling them they need to hire a younger guy with more mouths to feed than me? If I did, I wouldn't be contributing to my own luck. Do other professions have forced retirement for the same reason?
My point was that age doesn't matter. What matters is individual ability. Isn't that one reason we take periodic checkrides? If the sole reason for leaving is to make room for the young guys, then there is something seriously wrong with the system.
For those who I say I might have alimony, kids, too many bills, etc...that isn't the case. I have actually managed my life well (with a bit of luck), so why pay a penalty now if it is all still working?
I was forced to walk away once. I don't need to do it again. Besides, I'd personally rather earn the position fairly than take it away from someone in a socialistic manner.
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I am 67 and fly a four-engine jet for a government agency, and I'm not the only one there in that age range. Why do I do it? Because I enjoy it, I am still capable and they value my experience. I have a nice airline retirement, so money isn't a motivating issue. The money is just icing on the cake. Being forced to walk away from what I enjoy just because a junior guy wants my seat is assinine.
He passed every medical with flying colors, but it didn't matter one bit.
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What constantly amazes me is that we keep going on about the old farts who refuse to retire(as though it is their fault) etc when it is patently obvious that the only reason the age limit keeps increasing is because it is cheaper for the managers to keep old farts flying than it is for them to pay decent wages for younger pilots.
In the old days(which are gone), a pilot could afford to retire at 55 because the system knew that it was unhealthy for him(and the passengers), to continue flying beyond that age. The managers have realised that it is cheaper to keep an older pilot flying for longer and pay less for his replacement(in the long run). They also know that we will attack one another in a fit of pique rather than band together, identify the problem and act together to correct it.
The longer I work here, the more I realise that we actually deserve this dismal treatment because we are just a bunch of wankers.
In the old days(which are gone), a pilot could afford to retire at 55 because the system knew that it was unhealthy for him(and the passengers), to continue flying beyond that age. The managers have realised that it is cheaper to keep an older pilot flying for longer and pay less for his replacement(in the long run). They also know that we will attack one another in a fit of pique rather than band together, identify the problem and act together to correct it.
The longer I work here, the more I realise that we actually deserve this dismal treatment because we are just a bunch of wankers.
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I am a 60 plus -er who cannot really afford to pack it in yet , my pension from the only decent airline I worked for is just disappearing down the plughole thanks to the fatcats who have screwed us , the world economy , etc etc , and I wonder how the hell I will pay my electricity bill in about 5 years time , let alone travel to see my grandchildren . I have decided to fly as long as I can , you are a long time retired after all , and have a nest egg to give me at least 5 years of decent retirement before I have to batten down the hatches and become a peasant. So , sorry guys , I am hanging on to my seat for a while yet , and I can still 'cut it' , many of my colleagues cannot yet do that .
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I do wish some of you guys would get your head around the fact that 65, yes, 65 was the age for retirement and is what many of us signed up for.
The age limit of 60 was arbitrarily introduced and many of us were forced out five years early at age 60.
Personally I believe 70 is too much, 65 is enough.
All that has happened with the age limit being restored to 65 is that a grievous wrong has been put right.
The age limit of 60 was arbitrarily introduced and many of us were forced out five years early at age 60.
Personally I believe 70 is too much, 65 is enough.
All that has happened with the age limit being restored to 65 is that a grievous wrong has been put right.
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Parabellum:
When I joined my airline the age was 55. This was extended to 58 at company discretion. A little later we voted to extend the age to 60, same as the then FAA limit. One part of that extension was that if any pilot was to be made redundant the over 55s were first to go!
Our company is now 180 pilots overstaffed according to management but the young guys will be those that suffer!
In our company the current over 60 captains have had their cake for years and are now eating it! Even some to the extent of costing the company around $250K to endorse them on A380 for their last 2-3 years!
With a couple of million in super they still carry on while others suffer!
When I joined my airline the age was 55. This was extended to 58 at company discretion. A little later we voted to extend the age to 60, same as the then FAA limit. One part of that extension was that if any pilot was to be made redundant the over 55s were first to go!
Our company is now 180 pilots overstaffed according to management but the young guys will be those that suffer!In our company the current over 60 captains have had their cake for years and are now eating it! Even some to the extent of costing the company around $250K to endorse them on A380 for their last 2-3 years!
With a couple of million in super they still carry on while others suffer!