Age 70 for international pilots?
Here is a short story that has some relevance to the question of retirement age...
Come back and tell the same story in another week after you've forgotten that you already shared your whitty yarn.
Following WW-II BOAC recruited pilots of similar age and experience, all jolly good chaps who had been recruited into the Air Force in more or less the same short time span, so who should be Captains and who co-pilots ?
It was even before my time, but I believe it was more or less first through the door were Captains, and then the rest became co-pilots, so that this latter group would reach retirement - then age 55 - at the same time as those lucky enough to get the command slots, and never get promoted, so finally, after a few years a deal was struck whereby for every really old - i.e. 55 - Captain 2 co-pilots were promoted. They were called Captains X and would often be rostered together, one in command outbound, and the other in command homebound.
I was a P.3 / Nav on the 707 whilst this procedure was still working its' way through the seniority lists, and one day flew with a left hand seat Captain X who announced that this was his first trip on his own after just completing his conversion to the 707, and asked the crew to ' keep an eye on him ' Early CRM !
With no serious navigation to be done between London and Rome, I read the newspapers and then climbed into the P.3 jump seat for the approach to Rome, to notice that nothing had been done by way of approach checks, and that the right hand seat Capt X was silently tapping the check-list on his knee. I prompted the L.H. seat Capt X who then called for the approach check list.
After landing he asked me if I needed to navigate between Rome and Singapore, and on the route we would follow there was no pure nav. requirement, and he then asked the R.H. seat capt X why he hadn't reminded him to start the checks - would he have allowed him to land gear up for instance ? Of course, was the reply, you're the Captain, you didn't ask for any checks. !! At which the L.H. seat capt X told him to f**k off to the cabin for the rest of the trip, and I would be co -pilot from there to Singapore.
Of course I wasn't exactly relishing the trip home, when the Command roles would be reversed, but whilst flight planning at Singapore the original R.H. seat Capt X was berating the staff as to why they hadn't briefed him before we left the hotel, as was the habit. The original L.H. seat Capt X said " I was de-X'd last week, I'm still in command, f**k off again.
I was co-pilot all the way back home, too !
Happy Days, but the above scenario, even with the Capts. X alleviating the problem a little, meant that many co-pilots were only promoted shortly before retiring, I waited 16 years, to over age 40, and was actually luckier than a lot.
It was even before my time, but I believe it was more or less first through the door were Captains, and then the rest became co-pilots, so that this latter group would reach retirement - then age 55 - at the same time as those lucky enough to get the command slots, and never get promoted, so finally, after a few years a deal was struck whereby for every really old - i.e. 55 - Captain 2 co-pilots were promoted. They were called Captains X and would often be rostered together, one in command outbound, and the other in command homebound.
I was a P.3 / Nav on the 707 whilst this procedure was still working its' way through the seniority lists, and one day flew with a left hand seat Captain X who announced that this was his first trip on his own after just completing his conversion to the 707, and asked the crew to ' keep an eye on him ' Early CRM !
With no serious navigation to be done between London and Rome, I read the newspapers and then climbed into the P.3 jump seat for the approach to Rome, to notice that nothing had been done by way of approach checks, and that the right hand seat Capt X was silently tapping the check-list on his knee. I prompted the L.H. seat Capt X who then called for the approach check list.
After landing he asked me if I needed to navigate between Rome and Singapore, and on the route we would follow there was no pure nav. requirement, and he then asked the R.H. seat capt X why he hadn't reminded him to start the checks - would he have allowed him to land gear up for instance ? Of course, was the reply, you're the Captain, you didn't ask for any checks. !! At which the L.H. seat capt X told him to f**k off to the cabin for the rest of the trip, and I would be co -pilot from there to Singapore.
Of course I wasn't exactly relishing the trip home, when the Command roles would be reversed, but whilst flight planning at Singapore the original R.H. seat Capt X was berating the staff as to why they hadn't briefed him before we left the hotel, as was the habit. The original L.H. seat Capt X said " I was de-X'd last week, I'm still in command, f**k off again.
I was co-pilot all the way back home, too !
Happy Days, but the above scenario, even with the Capts. X alleviating the problem a little, meant that many co-pilots were only promoted shortly before retiring, I waited 16 years, to over age 40, and was actually luckier than a lot.
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This thread has turned into the average broadcast (attempted conversation) by the gummers I fly with. The "I remember when.....", "Once I was.....", "We used to..." Of course these events are all somewhat ancient. They regale the past as if was yesterday, but ask them something that actually happened yesterday and they draw a blank stare.
They mostly don't have a clue about current procedures or SOP's. We have had several significant procedural changes in our callouts and actions. These were turned on last year and to this date not ONE gummer I have flown with has used the correct verbiage or checklist procedure. The few guys we have that are under 60 seem to be able to adapt and adjust to the change. The old coots are clueless or they give me my favorite line:"I'm out of here in two years, I don't care if I do it correctly", "They don't PAY me enough to change or read the changes"
Yes we wouldn't know how to run the airline without you......
They mostly don't have a clue about current procedures or SOP's. We have had several significant procedural changes in our callouts and actions. These were turned on last year and to this date not ONE gummer I have flown with has used the correct verbiage or checklist procedure. The few guys we have that are under 60 seem to be able to adapt and adjust to the change. The old coots are clueless or they give me my favorite line:"I'm out of here in two years, I don't care if I do it correctly", "They don't PAY me enough to change or read the changes"
Yes we wouldn't know how to run the airline without you......
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fighter pilots and age don't matter for this thread. while younger folks are needed for those beautiful fighters, if you maneuvered a transport like a fighter you would knock off the tail like on that POS Airbus 300 in JFK.
relevence zero
relevence zero
I loved it, Saigon. And it's EXTREMELY relevant
As for the debate, it would be funny if we were discussing Age 65+ with a bunch of early 20's First Officers. That might be the case with the members of some carriers here on this board. In that case I'd have to agree it's probably relevant at those carriers.
In the USA however, it's not relevant, and comes across fairly arrogant if applied to many US carriers.
Like any joke, the audience has to be there for it to be funny for all. it surely doesn't apply at my carrier. Many of the First Officers have as much or more command experience as Commander of heavy jets as the Captains they fly with. That might confuse 411A.
I enjoy your stories, Exsp33, but while we are talking about the air force, can you update me on the number of 60 year (and older) active fighter pilots in RAF?
But ...... the very old Captains that I had to fly with when I moved to the airline, were probably only in their mid 40's at that time, but to a 23 yr. old seemed ancient, however they had to retire at 55 regardless of their physical attributes, and of course were usually ex-Bomber pilots and Transport pilots, not fighter pilots, tho' we had some Mossie Pathfinders' too.
Complete with medals.
But ...... it should not be the mere label of a Calendar Age that is the criteria, if a 61 yr old can meet the medical, and other stringent requirements to handle a front line fighter, why not ? tho' I accept that it is extremely unlikely that one would.
You don't post your age, I'm not ashamed of mine, even tho' I would like it to be 30 years less, just guessing but I'll be interested to hear your opinion in 30 years time !
Cheers.
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I'm 40, but I feel like I'm in my 20's. In my head.
But I can't go on the piss like I did when I was 20 without having a near death situation the next day, and I need roughly twice as much light in order to see the same as a 20 year old when it's dark.
Yet my doctor never checks my night vision, just how well I see in a brightly lit office.
I don't FEEL my age, but I'm aware that I have a 40 year old body, unlike most Gummers (that name caught immediately) in here who think they still have the brain and body of a 20 year old.
Aging is real, like it or not. Dr Anthony says old people don't make mistakes, and they don't need the reflexes of a younger person because of this. Well, old people do make mistakes just like everyone else, and close to V1 you can't sit back and analyze what to do if an engine quits.
And a Gummer did fly into a mountain in Pakistan, killing over 150 people in what appears to be a fully serviceable aircraft.
But I can't go on the piss like I did when I was 20 without having a near death situation the next day, and I need roughly twice as much light in order to see the same as a 20 year old when it's dark.
Yet my doctor never checks my night vision, just how well I see in a brightly lit office.
I don't FEEL my age, but I'm aware that I have a 40 year old body, unlike most Gummers (that name caught immediately) in here who think they still have the brain and body of a 20 year old.
Aging is real, like it or not. Dr Anthony says old people don't make mistakes, and they don't need the reflexes of a younger person because of this. Well, old people do make mistakes just like everyone else, and close to V1 you can't sit back and analyze what to do if an engine quits.
And a Gummer did fly into a mountain in Pakistan, killing over 150 people in what appears to be a fully serviceable aircraft.
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And a Gummer did fly into a mountain in Pakistan, killing over 150 people in what appears to be a fully serviceable aircraft.
........I'm 40, but I feel like I'm in my 20's. In my head.
What would you think if "someone" now decreed that all pilots should be stopped at age 39, irrespective of their individual physical condition ?
and if age alone is to be the criteria, what age ? and who is going to become the God that decides that ? and will you acquiesce with them subserviently ?
At age 64+ I was offered a short-term job as co-pilot to age 65, my first simulator session after a 4 year absence felt just like going home, I renewed my Class 1 med. ATPL and I/Rtg. and thoroughly enjoyed myself for 8 months, and why not if that was what I wanted to do and was physically and technically able to so ?
I can no longer maintain a Class 1 med. and of course that has happened as a result of the ageing process, but not because of any specific, arbitrary birthdate.
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and if age alone is to be the criteria, what age ? and who is going to become the God that decides that ? and will you acquiesce with them subserviently ?
Do you guys not have a life apart from flying? Hobbies, travel, family? It used to be a privilege to retire at 60. Go out and do something! Something else!
To answer you other question, in 30 years I really hope the only place I'll be in the aircraft is the cabin, sipping a GT.
Unlike our company Gummers, I'm sure I'll get a jump seat ride if I need it. No over 60 pilots will ever sit on mine.
It used to be a privilege to retire at 60
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The average age of life expectancy has through the ages been going up from 40, 50, 60 till the actual average of 76 years. So, we as humans seem to be getting better at living longer. Agreed, we have also advanced in medical terms, quality of life, etc. The age issue is not only about pension plans and setting up limits to retirement. It has also been adjusted to the individual necessities’, financial requirements, etc. At what age do we establish that limit if, we are compliant with all the requirements? Difficult answer and one which will bring much controversy!!!!
Last edited by MPH; 9th Sep 2010 at 17:03.
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FAREASTDRIVER
you are right.
this whole business is down to money. retirement at age 60 was fine...if you got the retirement promised.
now, the promise is gone...and no one got in trouble, no punishment. management got theirs...we didn't get ours. the fun is gone...things had a natural way of taking care of things...now its money.
there should simply be no age limit on flying...pass your tests, medical and practical...and keep on flying.
make the tests as hard as you like...but everyone will take the same tests....23 to 100plus.
you are right.
this whole business is down to money. retirement at age 60 was fine...if you got the retirement promised.
now, the promise is gone...and no one got in trouble, no punishment. management got theirs...we didn't get ours. the fun is gone...things had a natural way of taking care of things...now its money.
there should simply be no age limit on flying...pass your tests, medical and practical...and keep on flying.
make the tests as hard as you like...but everyone will take the same tests....23 to 100plus.
Do you guys not have a life apart from flying? Hobbies, travel, family?
going up from 40, 50, 60 till the actual average of 76 years.
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Sudden Incapacitation
The stated reason in the preamble to the original rule on Age 60 was to avoid sudden incapacitation. What is the most common form of incapacitation you might ask. According to an FAA report it is digestive problems.
Take a look at the Qantas incapacitation a couple of years ago. The crew ent out for sushi the night before and the Captain became incapacitated a couple of hours into the flight. The F/O continued on for many hours, overflying suitable airports and landed (feeling queasy).
Let's solve real problems.
Goldfish
Take a look at the Qantas incapacitation a couple of years ago. The crew ent out for sushi the night before and the Captain became incapacitated a couple of hours into the flight. The F/O continued on for many hours, overflying suitable airports and landed (feeling queasy).
Let's solve real problems.
Goldfish
