Congress tightens requirements for airline pilots
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congress tightens requirements for airline pilots
Appears you now need 1500hours total to fly with passengers in the States....Wonder about the requirement to fly TO/FROM the States....
Congress tightens requirements for airline pilots - latimes.com
"Reacting to last year's Continental crash near Buffalo, N.Y., that killed 50 people, the legislation requires pilots to log more flight time before flying passengers and aims to reduce pilot fatigue.
Reporting from Washington Responding to the deaths of 50 people in the crash last year of a Continental Airlines flight near Buffalo, N.Y., Congress passed legislation Friday requiring increased training and experience for regional airline pilots.
The House passed the measure, which also extends Federal Aviation Administration funding, on a voice vote just before midnight Thursday, and the Senate approved identical legislation Friday morning. No member of either chamber objected.
The legislation requires all airline pilots to log at least 1,500 hours of flight time before flying passengers, up from the current 250-hour minimum for newly hired copilots. The bill also boosts training, mandates the creation of a national database of pilot records and aims to reduce pilot fatigue by directing the FAA to update rules on pilot duty hours.
In addition, passengers who shop for airline tickets on the Internet must be notified which carrier will operate each segment of the itinerary.
The bill, which Rep. Jerry F. Costello (D-Ill.) lauded as the strongest airline safety legislation in decades, was drafted in response to the Continental Airlines flight operated by regional carrier Colgan Air that crashed in February 2009, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground. Regional airlines were involved in the last seven fatal U.S. airline accidents, and pilot performance was a factor in four cases, said Costello, who chairs the House aviation subcommittee.
Applause rang out in the gallery when the House passed the bill. Families of the victims of the Continental crash traveled to Washington more than 30 times over the last year to push for reform.Karen Eckert of Williamsville, N.Y., said the legislation would have pleased her sister, Beverly Eckert, a Sept. 11 widow who served on the 9/11 Family Steering Committee before her death in the crash. "We are delighted" with the legislation, Eckert said. "It actually encompasses almost every single item that we had asked for. No other plane will crash because of inadequate training."
Regional and commuter airlines, which are most affected, voiced concerns that the government was getting too involved in training issues. The Aug. 1 expiration of FAA funding provided a vehicle for the safety upgrades, a House committee aide said. Congress has extended FAA funding 15 times since 2007, when the last comprehensive aviation law was due to expire.
Members of Congress aim to have a comprehensive airline bill ready by Sept. 30, when the latest extension of FAA funding expires. Divisive provisions over unions at FedEx Corp. and long-distance flights from Reagan National Airport outside Washington have kept the broader bill tabled for months."
Congress tightens requirements for airline pilots - latimes.com
"Reacting to last year's Continental crash near Buffalo, N.Y., that killed 50 people, the legislation requires pilots to log more flight time before flying passengers and aims to reduce pilot fatigue.
Reporting from Washington Responding to the deaths of 50 people in the crash last year of a Continental Airlines flight near Buffalo, N.Y., Congress passed legislation Friday requiring increased training and experience for regional airline pilots.
The House passed the measure, which also extends Federal Aviation Administration funding, on a voice vote just before midnight Thursday, and the Senate approved identical legislation Friday morning. No member of either chamber objected.
The legislation requires all airline pilots to log at least 1,500 hours of flight time before flying passengers, up from the current 250-hour minimum for newly hired copilots. The bill also boosts training, mandates the creation of a national database of pilot records and aims to reduce pilot fatigue by directing the FAA to update rules on pilot duty hours.
In addition, passengers who shop for airline tickets on the Internet must be notified which carrier will operate each segment of the itinerary.
The bill, which Rep. Jerry F. Costello (D-Ill.) lauded as the strongest airline safety legislation in decades, was drafted in response to the Continental Airlines flight operated by regional carrier Colgan Air that crashed in February 2009, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground. Regional airlines were involved in the last seven fatal U.S. airline accidents, and pilot performance was a factor in four cases, said Costello, who chairs the House aviation subcommittee.
Applause rang out in the gallery when the House passed the bill. Families of the victims of the Continental crash traveled to Washington more than 30 times over the last year to push for reform.Karen Eckert of Williamsville, N.Y., said the legislation would have pleased her sister, Beverly Eckert, a Sept. 11 widow who served on the 9/11 Family Steering Committee before her death in the crash. "We are delighted" with the legislation, Eckert said. "It actually encompasses almost every single item that we had asked for. No other plane will crash because of inadequate training."
Regional and commuter airlines, which are most affected, voiced concerns that the government was getting too involved in training issues. The Aug. 1 expiration of FAA funding provided a vehicle for the safety upgrades, a House committee aide said. Congress has extended FAA funding 15 times since 2007, when the last comprehensive aviation law was due to expire.
Members of Congress aim to have a comprehensive airline bill ready by Sept. 30, when the latest extension of FAA funding expires. Divisive provisions over unions at FedEx Corp. and long-distance flights from Reagan National Airport outside Washington have kept the broader bill tabled for months."
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: A25R
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
About time. Hopefully this will filter through to Europe and stop this mass hiring and exploitation of 200 hour pilots straight onto public transport jets. Whilst most that I have flown with are good considering their scant experience, the overall awareness and knowledge base is commensurately low. This is a clear dilution of safety exemplified by this accident.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: E.U.
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Low Time New Pilots
IMHO, having flown commercial with many excellently trained low time co-pilots, that it is not the crude measure of hours that is important, but the quality of the training that has been done in those hours.
Several of the well known EU schools produce excellent, well motivated co-pilots, well qualified to handle modern jets.
Several of the well known EU schools produce excellent, well motivated co-pilots, well qualified to handle modern jets.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seoul
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only SLF but....
Everyone must start somewhere and I accept that on some flight I will have less experienced pilots than on other. Also, while everything else being equal, more hours are better, nothing is ever equal.
I would rather have a well trained, well supervised 250 hour co-pilot up there than a poorly trained, poorly supervised 1500 hour co-pilot.
This law seems a reaction to some (probably bean counters) not investing enough in safety, and thus making thing worse for all. Sadly you can not legislate reasonableness or common sense
TME.
Everyone must start somewhere and I accept that on some flight I will have less experienced pilots than on other. Also, while everything else being equal, more hours are better, nothing is ever equal.
I would rather have a well trained, well supervised 250 hour co-pilot up there than a poorly trained, poorly supervised 1500 hour co-pilot.
This law seems a reaction to some (probably bean counters) not investing enough in safety, and thus making thing worse for all. Sadly you can not legislate reasonableness or common sense
TME.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Around the corner
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was not the Colgane crash problem mostly the inexperience (for whatever reason) of the captain? So why this bill is aimed only at copilots? Are they an easier and more obvious target?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malta
Age: 40
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this new regulation will only complicate matters. Why they decided that a first officer with low hrs is not capable I donīt know, because for one, the first officer involved in the crash had more then 1500hrs.
Ok so now we have this new regulation. What are the airlines going to get, flight instructors with 1500, corporate pilots with 1500.. would they have airline experience ? Also consider, now that your box to choose from is lower, so now a 1000hr pilot who is clearly much brighter then the other is not offered the job.
I am a 300hr corporate pilot flying an SR22 in Europe, because I got stuck in this era, but through determination I have landed a flying job. The good thing is that I am in Europe so this regulation (till now thankfully) does not apply to me, but if it were, you are telling me, I am stuck flying the SR22 for a couple of years or maybe upgrade to something bigger before I can even think about moving on to the airlines. Were probably my experience in having to do all the flight planning, decision making more often becuase its a single and my cruising altitude is not 40,000ft were I can sit down, have a coffee and relax, does not count for anything until I get the magic 1500 NUMBER !!! Ohh yeah 1500 because I am now able to get an ATP !! I donīt know how it is in the FAA system, but in a JAA system 1500 is still not enough to get an ATP, because you need to have certain amount of multi pilot, night time, etc etc..
So I think eventually this will backfire ..
Ok so now we have this new regulation. What are the airlines going to get, flight instructors with 1500, corporate pilots with 1500.. would they have airline experience ? Also consider, now that your box to choose from is lower, so now a 1000hr pilot who is clearly much brighter then the other is not offered the job.
I am a 300hr corporate pilot flying an SR22 in Europe, because I got stuck in this era, but through determination I have landed a flying job. The good thing is that I am in Europe so this regulation (till now thankfully) does not apply to me, but if it were, you are telling me, I am stuck flying the SR22 for a couple of years or maybe upgrade to something bigger before I can even think about moving on to the airlines. Were probably my experience in having to do all the flight planning, decision making more often becuase its a single and my cruising altitude is not 40,000ft were I can sit down, have a coffee and relax, does not count for anything until I get the magic 1500 NUMBER !!! Ohh yeah 1500 because I am now able to get an ATP !! I donīt know how it is in the FAA system, but in a JAA system 1500 is still not enough to get an ATP, because you need to have certain amount of multi pilot, night time, etc etc..
So I think eventually this will backfire ..
Paxing All Over The World
SLF speaking
F117A
If it does - you may be certain that the folks who made the legislation will not be asked why and how. Also, they will be long retired as these things have a long development time.
From the quoted report:
Oh dear. If only!! I understand their anger and desire to see change but the changes in the commercial world (NOT just aviation) in the past 25 years mean that this legislation does not tackle the most obvious problems, nor offer a suitable fix. In my personal view.
F117A
So I think eventually this will backfire ..
From the quoted report:
Karen Eckert of Williamsville, N.Y. said. ".
No other plane will crash because of inadequate training."
Good!!!
but it will never erase stupidity, carelessness, lack of knowledge, poor training, Brain-in-the-Butt etc just a very thin beginning
I don't care if they are the most knowledgeable cadets possible,... I don't want to be in the back of a plane with someone who has never been in a small plane, IFR in the the mountains, at night, by themselves..as a job,...
but it will never erase stupidity, carelessness, lack of knowledge, poor training, Brain-in-the-Butt etc just a very thin beginning
I don't care if they are the most knowledgeable cadets possible,... I don't want to be in the back of a plane with someone who has never been in a small plane, IFR in the the mountains, at night, by themselves..as a job,...
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sometimes I am just shocked at what I read here.
first off: teach me: what would you rather have a poorly trained, poorly supervised, poorly paid copilot with 1500 hours or a poorly trained, poorly supervised, poorly paid copilot with 250 hours? It isn't a matter of one type of supervision or training vs another.
F117...so, you are a corporate pilot in an SR22. You are learning LESS than a 300 hour CFI...see, you learn more about flying when you actually have to teach someone else how to fly. And gee whiz...all that fixed landing gear time is really important! And you even have a parachute.
Pressman makes a fine point...anyone can go from 250 hours to 1500 hours with just a few strokes of a pen (we call it "P51" Time...named for the Parker Pen Company model P51...not the famous mustang fighter)
PBY...some how I don't think you understand the progression in an airline from copilot to captain. It is usually based on seniority...and if you have to have 1500 hours to be a copilot, and then serve with the airline for some time till an opening for captain comes along, you would then have MORE THAN 1500 hours. Also, 1500 hours is the requirement to hold an ATP certificate which is a requirement to be a captain (actually the legal term is PILOT IN COMMAND).
CONTACTED...I have flown with pilots who have gone through excellent training programs and are not very good pilots. In fact, they have been terrible pilots.
Remember folks, we are not just churning out airplane drivers to fight a war where 25 missions was more than the expected lifetime (don't get me wrong, these were brave, brave men and we owe them our freedom). We are making airline pilots whose professional lives are years of shear boredom followed by minutes of stark terror.
This 1500 hour thing is a good first step. I understand there will be better rest requirements too.
first off: teach me: what would you rather have a poorly trained, poorly supervised, poorly paid copilot with 1500 hours or a poorly trained, poorly supervised, poorly paid copilot with 250 hours? It isn't a matter of one type of supervision or training vs another.
F117...so, you are a corporate pilot in an SR22. You are learning LESS than a 300 hour CFI...see, you learn more about flying when you actually have to teach someone else how to fly. And gee whiz...all that fixed landing gear time is really important! And you even have a parachute.
Pressman makes a fine point...anyone can go from 250 hours to 1500 hours with just a few strokes of a pen (we call it "P51" Time...named for the Parker Pen Company model P51...not the famous mustang fighter)
PBY...some how I don't think you understand the progression in an airline from copilot to captain. It is usually based on seniority...and if you have to have 1500 hours to be a copilot, and then serve with the airline for some time till an opening for captain comes along, you would then have MORE THAN 1500 hours. Also, 1500 hours is the requirement to hold an ATP certificate which is a requirement to be a captain (actually the legal term is PILOT IN COMMAND).
CONTACTED...I have flown with pilots who have gone through excellent training programs and are not very good pilots. In fact, they have been terrible pilots.
Remember folks, we are not just churning out airplane drivers to fight a war where 25 missions was more than the expected lifetime (don't get me wrong, these were brave, brave men and we owe them our freedom). We are making airline pilots whose professional lives are years of shear boredom followed by minutes of stark terror.
This 1500 hour thing is a good first step. I understand there will be better rest requirements too.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]Yet none of these low hour guys in Europe have been in a serious crash in recent years,
Food for thought/QUOTE]
err... top of my head the 737 crash in Amsterdam only a few months ago.
[QUOTE]t is not the crude measure of hours that is important, but the quality of the training that has been done in those hours. /QUOTE]
So who checks the "quality" of the training? where are these superior training schools? Fact is a wannabe has a frozen ATPL (nobody cares from where or what the training was like) next question is can he raid the equity on his Mum and Dadīs house to pay for a type rating and pay to fly some hours. No? Next.....
Good thing about 1500 hours is by then experience may have overcome some deficiencies on the training and no one is going to pay to fly so.... the best get hired rather than the richest or those blind enough to take the biggest loan.
Food for thought/QUOTE]
err... top of my head the 737 crash in Amsterdam only a few months ago.
[QUOTE]t is not the crude measure of hours that is important, but the quality of the training that has been done in those hours. /QUOTE]
So who checks the "quality" of the training? where are these superior training schools? Fact is a wannabe has a frozen ATPL (nobody cares from where or what the training was like) next question is can he raid the equity on his Mum and Dadīs house to pay for a type rating and pay to fly some hours. No? Next.....
Good thing about 1500 hours is by then experience may have overcome some deficiencies on the training and no one is going to pay to fly so.... the best get hired rather than the richest or those blind enough to take the biggest loan.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it boils down to this.
if you train and get a certificate with 200 hours or whatever...you might have just had a good day and passed your tests.
but if you have really flown 1500 hours without killing yourself or someone else, you might just have enough time to be on your way to a safe flying career.
you can have stew out of a microwave in 2 minutes, or you can have GOOO STEW if you simmer for hours and hours and hours.
same with pilots...you choose who YOU would want to be with on a dark and stormy night.
if you train and get a certificate with 200 hours or whatever...you might have just had a good day and passed your tests.
but if you have really flown 1500 hours without killing yourself or someone else, you might just have enough time to be on your way to a safe flying career.
you can have stew out of a microwave in 2 minutes, or you can have GOOO STEW if you simmer for hours and hours and hours.
same with pilots...you choose who YOU would want to be with on a dark and stormy night.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Gone Flying...
Age: 63
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this legislation, has at least four positive points:
- It will force airline companies to re-think training and evaluation;
- It will bring back the old progressive career;
- It will prevent schools and companies to use airliners, carrying passengers, for their P2F schemes;
- It will bring higher wages into the pilot's market.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yet none of these low hour guys in Europe have been in a serious crash in recent years,
Food for thought
Food for thought
Was it Thomas Cook?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]
I knew some know-it-all was gonna say that..
the f/o training had over 4000hours
over twice that of the safety pilot
http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/Netherl...ENG_Report.pdf
Appendix F
Maybe you should get a job in congress
Yet none of these low hour guys in Europe have been in a serious crash in recent years,
Food for thought/QUOTE]
err... top of my head the 737 crash in Amsterdam only a few months ago.
Food for thought/QUOTE]
err... top of my head the 737 crash in Amsterdam only a few months ago.
the f/o training had over 4000hours
over twice that of the safety pilot
http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/Netherl...ENG_Report.pdf
Appendix F
Maybe you should get a job in congress
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malta
Age: 40
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Few would argue that experience makes you a better pilot. But the kind of experience you get matters too. For many of us the only way to build flight time is flight instructing, and there arnīt many of those jobs out there. Even should you manage to get a job like that, how valuable is the time? Flying circuits in a C150 teaching students how to land may provide an interesting insight into the human psyche, but it wont necessarily make you more qualified to fly in the right seat of a transport category airplane.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F117
as someone who taught for quite awhile, I can tell you that monitoring landings while doing circuits teaches you quite a bit...much more than you might think...but only if you look for things to learn.
if you just sit there saying to yourself, gee I wish I was in a boeing...you might not learn too much.
I don't know about being a flight instructor in europe...never been there...never wanted to go. but I will tell you this...Lindbergh ( you might have heard of him) said that the time he instructed taught him more about flying than the flying he had done till then...you might want to read his book, "the Spirit of Stl Louis"...oh yeah, his plane didn't have a parachute and neither did he.
as someone who taught for quite awhile, I can tell you that monitoring landings while doing circuits teaches you quite a bit...much more than you might think...but only if you look for things to learn.
if you just sit there saying to yourself, gee I wish I was in a boeing...you might not learn too much.
I don't know about being a flight instructor in europe...never been there...never wanted to go. but I will tell you this...Lindbergh ( you might have heard of him) said that the time he instructed taught him more about flying than the flying he had done till then...you might want to read his book, "the Spirit of Stl Louis"...oh yeah, his plane didn't have a parachute and neither did he.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I spent a lot of time instructing in a C150 but also got to fly twins and aerobatic airplanes. Each hour you fly gives you a new experience. Basic flight instruction can wear you out but instrument instruction and ME instruction sharpens your skills while teaching. It can not be learned as a student as well as an instructor. Simple things like entering holding with no HSI makes you think almost as much as the student. Not experiencing this will leave you as a weak pilot maybe being able to get through the checkride but not mastering the basics.
Hallelujah!
Finally, someone has ralised we have to be saved from our on "ove'-vaulting ambition" to save themselves from us and the corporate entities that use us for their own advances. To all the low houred types out there, we all feel like we're pretty sharp when we start particularly if you excelled at school or in your training. The point is though, that most of us with more than 10 000 hours realise that there are plenty of times that experience borne by hard lessons have saved us NOT good training alone. Why don't we have 23 year old PhDs running the world or top businesses?
Congratulations to Congress, now let's hope some other countries follow suit!
Finally, someone has ralised we have to be saved from our on "ove'-vaulting ambition" to save themselves from us and the corporate entities that use us for their own advances. To all the low houred types out there, we all feel like we're pretty sharp when we start particularly if you excelled at school or in your training. The point is though, that most of us with more than 10 000 hours realise that there are plenty of times that experience borne by hard lessons have saved us NOT good training alone. Why don't we have 23 year old PhDs running the world or top businesses?
Congratulations to Congress, now let's hope some other countries follow suit!
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Few would argue that experience makes you a better pilot. But the kind of experience you get matters too.