Airblue down near Islamabad
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Alas, Saeedkhan, we would like to learn from the unfortunate experiences of others as soon as possible, especially as in the case of some jurisdictions the official results appear very slowly or sometimes never at all. This is as true of the AAIB as in many Eastern countries.
Aterpster says that according to US rules, commercial operations cannot begin a circle to land unless the PREVAILING visibility is greater than 2.3 nautical miles. It seems to me that with monsoon conditions veiling the hills, the prevailing visibility was dodgy and the circling approach should have been refused. Regardless of the skill or experience of the pilots.
When in doubt chicken out works better than sweating in any kitchen.
Aterpster says that according to US rules, commercial operations cannot begin a circle to land unless the PREVAILING visibility is greater than 2.3 nautical miles. It seems to me that with monsoon conditions veiling the hills, the prevailing visibility was dodgy and the circling approach should have been refused. Regardless of the skill or experience of the pilots.
When in doubt chicken out works better than sweating in any kitchen.
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The discussion wether 2.3 or 1.8 NM prevails is of trivial importance. The plane crashed more than 7 miles from the runway. Now the question is why it got so far astray.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Now the question is why it got so far astray.
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Having flown wide body aircraft into Pakistan for over a decade, it still amazes me that both Islamabad and Karachi do not have ILS approaches in both directions. For those of you who have not had the privilege, RW 12 Islamabad and RW 07 Karachi do not have any published approaches.. precision or non precision. The only options for landing on these runways are
1. Conduct ILS on opposite runway and circle - discussed in depth on this forum
2. Land straight in from the ILS with a tailwind close to or slightly above the max limits for the aircraft type.
3. Or in Karachi, get a radar vector to a point 5 nm on extended centerline RW 07 and cleared for a visual approach. We all know of someone who has lined up with the military field approx 2 km to the right of centerline.
It is sad that this tragic loss of life may be the catalyst to get the authorities concerned to install this relatively common and cheap (compared to a crash) approach aid.
Only recently the famous "flower" VOR approach in Peshawar was changed to a more standard tear drop pattern, this only after a few scares from operators.
1. Conduct ILS on opposite runway and circle - discussed in depth on this forum
2. Land straight in from the ILS with a tailwind close to or slightly above the max limits for the aircraft type.
3. Or in Karachi, get a radar vector to a point 5 nm on extended centerline RW 07 and cleared for a visual approach. We all know of someone who has lined up with the military field approx 2 km to the right of centerline.
It is sad that this tragic loss of life may be the catalyst to get the authorities concerned to install this relatively common and cheap (compared to a crash) approach aid.
Only recently the famous "flower" VOR approach in Peshawar was changed to a more standard tear drop pattern, this only after a few scares from operators.
saeedkhan The Circle To Land At 12 Rwy
............ i will come on this forum in due course and this is my actual name i will not hide my identity.
............ i will come on this forum in due course and this is my actual name i will not hide my identity.
franzl
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They won't install the ILS on 12 at OPRN because a new airport is being built out west near the city of Fathejang -- with thankfully no high ground around.
I don't know about Karachi or Lahore but they will say that at OPRN it would be a 'waste of money' (even though some of our aid donor's would happily install one for us with a non-debt-creating grant).
The 'kick-back' factor on a grant would come into play as well. I know government well.
I know it is a circle-to-land on 12 after letting down on the ILS to 30. But it seems we are not even sure he was doing that.
When I spoke of the arc I was mentally truncating the circle to define only its most critical points: the arc that is defined by the immediate proximity to the Margalla hills. Once you are past that arc of the circle and on base, you are OK.
I apologize for being unclear.
The excellent diagram with the approach plate superimposed on it is all over the inter-net. I thank you folks for drawing it.
I don't know who the rather hysterical gentleman from Pakistan is in case anyone thinks he is a side-kick. For starters, he should learn how to type.
The media in Pakistan has not done a mature job of reporting this accident. It has been very sensationalistic. I have tried to tell them it is pretty much the same in the west with TV stations and reporters camped outside the front door of dead pilots -- or those who lost their lives.
I have one question: wasn't he under radar control? Radar vectoring at OPRN is quite good as I am sure those who have been there will attest. I have heard many times on my VHF receiver 'thank you sir, that was a great job' or words of praise to that effect.
So what happened this time?
I don't know about Karachi or Lahore but they will say that at OPRN it would be a 'waste of money' (even though some of our aid donor's would happily install one for us with a non-debt-creating grant).
The 'kick-back' factor on a grant would come into play as well. I know government well.
I know it is a circle-to-land on 12 after letting down on the ILS to 30. But it seems we are not even sure he was doing that.
When I spoke of the arc I was mentally truncating the circle to define only its most critical points: the arc that is defined by the immediate proximity to the Margalla hills. Once you are past that arc of the circle and on base, you are OK.
I apologize for being unclear.
The excellent diagram with the approach plate superimposed on it is all over the inter-net. I thank you folks for drawing it.
I don't know who the rather hysterical gentleman from Pakistan is in case anyone thinks he is a side-kick. For starters, he should learn how to type.
The media in Pakistan has not done a mature job of reporting this accident. It has been very sensationalistic. I have tried to tell them it is pretty much the same in the west with TV stations and reporters camped outside the front door of dead pilots -- or those who lost their lives.
I have one question: wasn't he under radar control? Radar vectoring at OPRN is quite good as I am sure those who have been there will attest. I have heard many times on my VHF receiver 'thank you sir, that was a great job' or words of praise to that effect.
So what happened this time?
saeedkahn
I think I have been able to analyze your post, and ask you if this is how the basic meaning of your observations are organized. I expect that English is not your first language. Appreciate your putting the effort in with an incident of this gravity.
If I have misunderstood where your thoughts/observations break down, please let me know. If your post was a response to a particular writer, it helps to identify that post, or poster, so we know what you are responding to, other than the general discussion about the incident in Islamabad.
Respectfully, a good deal of the discussion, and some speculation in this discussion, have not been grounded in "baseless" hypothesis. A good deal of it has been based on the fact of the crash, the location of the crash, the approach in use, and what seems to be, based on the approach in use, how most crews would try to bring the plane to safe landing. It was noted early in the discussion that other flights in the same rough time frame diverted elsewhere, but that doesn't close the book on the approach. Weather changes and vis/holes move.
It has been pointed out that the investigation report may never become public, though we are all hopefull that the CAA in Pakistan will share as much information as they can based on the black box information. Other crews and airlines who fly into that airport will have an operational and safety interest in what were contributing factors.
And I had to call for the "gear!" loudly three times when the check pilot had the controls once, to save us both a gear up landing, a man who knew his aircraft and airfield well. Each flight, each approach, each landing, is an event that cares not how much time you or I have in type, model, or airfield. Each approach can become an accident if we make an error we should not.
See above.
Who was this question for?
Most of us reading this thread have.
This question concerns all of us.
See you again on the forum soon, I hope. 
I think I have been able to analyze your post, and ask you if this is how the basic meaning of your observations are organized. I expect that English is not your first language. Appreciate your putting the effort in with an incident of this gravity.
If I have misunderstood where your thoughts/observations break down, please let me know. If your post was a response to a particular writer, it helps to identify that post, or poster, so we know what you are responding to, other than the general discussion about the incident in Islamabad.
It is very disheartening to say the u have been an active contributor to this forum
since the crash all kind of speculation on baseless hypothesis
since the crash all kind of speculation on baseless hypothesis
would u please have patience to hear the investigation report,u have been very bitter about in the last few posts as the dead man never defends mr intelligent
i suggest u first find out what the ac was doing there prevails] has huge experience in flying the northern areas and he knew the area at the palm of his hand
hi professional capability is beyond doubt now coming down to u r next question:
how do u assume that he was new on the type and did not know how to fly tis ac
please put u self in his position and ask u self would u go on a heading of 334 or 340 else the radar asks u the circle to land is an exercise done executed in a low vis staying within 1.8 miles
so please answer why would a captain do eight miles and his experience on the bus had been for the last 2,5 years
please update i will come on this forum in due course and this is my actual name i will not hide my identity.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 3rd Aug 2010 at 12:55.
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BOAC:
I don't know what the standard visibility for CAT D CTL is under PANS-OPS. I do know it is charted as 3600 meters for OPRN. That is 1.94 n.m. or 2.24 s.m.
'Mary' - a correction- aterpster and PansOps say the visibility (Cat D) must be at least 2 SM (I make that 1.74nm aterpster?), not 2.3nm
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mary meagher:
Not me. 2.3 n.m. is the limit of the TERPs protected airspace for CAT D CTL. If the MDA is not excessively high the standard visibility minimum is 2 s.m.
Aterpster says that according to US rules, commercial operations cannot begin a circle to land unless the PREVAILING visibility is greater than 2.3 nautical miles.
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Meekal:
A VOR IAP might fit. An RNAV IAP would almost certainly. Either of those is a low-cost option.
They won't install the ILS on 12 at OPRN because a new airport is being built out west near the city of Fathejang -- with thankfully no high ground around.
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aterpster,
It is unbelievable that in this day and age of tech that the rnav option is not readily available at airports where they actually would do some good.
We used to circle to the east (rnwy 11 if memory serves) in Addis Ababa and what a pleasure when they finally introduced the rnav app.
It is unbelievable that in this day and age of tech that the rnav option is not readily available at airports where they actually would do some good.
We used to circle to the east (rnwy 11 if memory serves) in Addis Ababa and what a pleasure when they finally introduced the rnav app.
saeedkhan
What post are you responding to?
What originated from Karach?
What was up and down?
That is wrong it originated from karach it was up and pown
What originated from Karach?
What was up and down?
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poina:
Some aviation authorities are not ready to sign onto RNAV. Some of them don't want to use the U.S. GPS system for political reasons. Others haven't had the prerequisite WGS84 surveys.
But, at OPRN it appears to me that technically a VOR DME approach to Runway 12 would have been feasible since the installation of the RN VOR/DME.
I found an old (1959) U.S. Army topographical map on the web. I drew up the following VOR DME approach to Runway 12:
aterpster,
It is unbelievable that in this day and age of tech that the rnav option is not readily available at airports where they actually would do some good.
We used to circle to the east (rnwy 11 if memory serves) in Addis Ababa and what a pleasure when they finally introduced the rnav app.
It is unbelievable that in this day and age of tech that the rnav option is not readily available at airports where they actually would do some good.
We used to circle to the east (rnwy 11 if memory serves) in Addis Ababa and what a pleasure when they finally introduced the rnav app.
But, at OPRN it appears to me that technically a VOR DME approach to Runway 12 would have been feasible since the installation of the RN VOR/DME.
I found an old (1959) U.S. Army topographical map on the web. I drew up the following VOR DME approach to Runway 12:
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islanabad crash
Here i would like to put some thing very straight for the record that pervaiz iqbal the captain had been in islamabad since we all started flying .the way things work is usually hush hush. I had asked this question on one of the forum that ,would the EGPWS work in case of radar jamming or since the bus is fly by wire all the systems work computer in case of a total jamming would the control function.Secondly we all know as professional pilots that he should nor be there where he was so what made him go there was it am armed intrusion or it a sabotage or simply the radar guidance those of u who have flown in Pakistan would bare with me it is always a very difficult approach in isb reason the area is so restricted because of prohibited areas very little one can do i do agree at the same time the procedure or the airman ship is in doubt get out from there as for his training for mr mekel he was trained by the pia flying academy no offence for any, the circling man . is easy to execute in the bus then any ac i have flown by th e way mr mekel ihave also flown for the last 43 years BY THE GRACE OF GOD an all the airplane pia as well the bus most modern the point to emphasis is not the ac but the simplicity of the procedures and the evolution of the aviation toward the user friendly concept