Airblue down near Islamabad
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I have lived in Islamabad for 25 years. This circling to land on 12 was always very dicey in my view. The procedure is you fly the ILS to 30 then break-off and turn right and then fly the arc downwind to land on 12.
Obviously he drifted beyond the arc. As a previous 747 skipper he should know Islamabad very well.
You are probably wondering why not break off to the left, away from the Margalla hills. Well to the left is a military airbase (Dhamial) and the Headquarters of the Army (GHQ) and that is all restricted airspace.
Pakistan has never published an air accident report in 62 years. I don't think that is going to change in this case. Pity. No lessons will be learnt from the facts of this tragedy and the public will be fed on rumors and speculation until this accident fades from the front pages and is forgotten.
I wonder whether someone here more resourceful than I can get the approach plates for OPRN. I had them but lost them. The plates will have the procedure.
Obviously he drifted beyond the arc. As a previous 747 skipper he should know Islamabad very well.
You are probably wondering why not break off to the left, away from the Margalla hills. Well to the left is a military airbase (Dhamial) and the Headquarters of the Army (GHQ) and that is all restricted airspace.
Pakistan has never published an air accident report in 62 years. I don't think that is going to change in this case. Pity. No lessons will be learnt from the facts of this tragedy and the public will be fed on rumors and speculation until this accident fades from the front pages and is forgotten.
I wonder whether someone here more resourceful than I can get the approach plates for OPRN. I had them but lost them. The plates will have the procedure.
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Latest reports show 1 blackbox has been found.
ATC tapes being described as telling the pilots that they had gone out of the circling radius, pilots replied back with rwy in sight.
ATC tapes being described as telling the pilots that they had gone out of the circling radius, pilots replied back with rwy in sight.
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heard on the news here that the captain retired from PIA 7 years ago - they were deducing from that that he would therefore be 67 (retire from PIA at 60). They even mentioned that he therefore "may" have been tired - purely based on his age. This was a Pakistani journalist. Just reporting what I heard here.
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The circle to land on RW 12 puzzles me. If the winds quoted in a previous post are correct, the tailwind component on RW 30 should have been no more than 6 knots. With over 10,000 feet of runway, that is well within normal limits for an A 321.
Guest
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The topography in Jeppview is a bit coarse, but nonetheless useful to a limited extent.
If someone were doing a left circuit circle to Runway 12 off one of the 30 IAPs, the terrain threat appears to be about 7 n.m. west, northwest of the airport.
If someone were doing a left circuit circle to Runway 12 off one of the 30 IAPs, the terrain threat appears to be about 7 n.m. west, northwest of the airport.
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Bushjeppy,
I don't think the flight originated at MAN. My SBS history shows that the last flight from MAN for this aircraft was.
ABQ221 on the 23/7/10 at 22.05L
Regards,
Mark
I don't think the flight originated at MAN. My SBS history shows that the last flight from MAN for this aircraft was.
ABQ221 on the 23/7/10 at 22.05L
Regards,
Mark
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Well they weren't following the procedure in that plate, since they crashed a few miles to the north west of the lake detailed on the top of the plate west of the high ground at 2090' and north of the high ground 2208'
The map on the bbc site:
BBC News - No survivors as Pakistan plane crash kills 152
The map on the bbc site:
BBC News - No survivors as Pakistan plane crash kills 152
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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As FBW says, one heck of a 'circle to land' - 7 miles away at 1300' ATE - surely something else going on?.
Is there no R12 approach other than circling? VOR appears to be lined up, and 090/18 would certainly be O.O.Limits for R30.
Is there no R12 approach other than circling? VOR appears to be lined up, and 090/18 would certainly be O.O.Limits for R30.
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I think "denlopviper and Meekal" have got it right.
Have personally witnessed another major Pakistani carrier do the said circling approach after breaking off the ILS 30. Not a problem if done correctly and within the rules. I don't have the minima handy but from memory around 1000' and 5km vis required for the circling approach. In the case I witnessed vis was reported below minima yet the a/c was allowed to continue on the circling approach. I watched the a/c disappear into the sandstorm only to appear some 5 or so minutes later on final approach. The crew that day definitely did not maintain visual contact with the threshold or it's surrounds as required.
If this is proven to be the case the crew will be crucified, I hope the procedures and ATC there are looked at closely as this is an ongoing illegal procedure which is done with the blessing of the controllers.
AUH
Have personally witnessed another major Pakistani carrier do the said circling approach after breaking off the ILS 30. Not a problem if done correctly and within the rules. I don't have the minima handy but from memory around 1000' and 5km vis required for the circling approach. In the case I witnessed vis was reported below minima yet the a/c was allowed to continue on the circling approach. I watched the a/c disappear into the sandstorm only to appear some 5 or so minutes later on final approach. The crew that day definitely did not maintain visual contact with the threshold or it's surrounds as required.
If this is proven to be the case the crew will be crucified, I hope the procedures and ATC there are looked at closely as this is an ongoing illegal procedure which is done with the blessing of the controllers.
AUH
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aa73: on downwind in a circle to land on A32F you are Gear Down and Flaps 3 so not flaps Full; not fully configured for landing. So GPWS is still active ( mode 4 ) and you would have an audio " too low flaps " or " too low terrain " ( depending on IAS and height ) + GPWS light.
Or better: you will have directly GPWS mode 2: excessive terrain closure rate.
'' Terrain Terrain Pull up "
In both cases in IMC: " Pull up - TOGA " Escape!!! Immediately!
And if equipped with EGPWS the caution then warning would have probably come even before.
FBW390
Or better: you will have directly GPWS mode 2: excessive terrain closure rate.
'' Terrain Terrain Pull up "
In both cases in IMC: " Pull up - TOGA " Escape!!! Immediately!
And if equipped with EGPWS the caution then warning would have probably come even before.
FBW390
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The ILS for 30 shows the MDA to circle at 2410' and 2510' if 180kts or higher. Also, the chart has a note to contact Cherat Approach if comm failure occurs. Is comm failure such an oft-repeated event on 124.9 that it warrants a note on the chart?
