Airblue down near Islamabad

[johannschmith]

While modern glass cockpit a/c (with GPS for accuracy) can greatly enhance the situational awareness of a crew and probably make flying a circling approach safer than in older first generation jets, it is still a procedure that is in my opinion
a. not really designed for large transport category a/c
b. much more suited to light a/c
c. a last resort

Of course we can practice it in the sim but the average line pilot gets in the box four times a year if he's lucky and will rarely do a circling approach. I seem to remember it is required in JAA rules if an operator routinely uses them in its network.

If GF has banned circling in their company I say good for them. It's up to the airport authoorities to spend a little and put proper (flyable) instrument approaches on all runways used by transport category a/c. If we can bomb the Taliban with drones piloted by remote from the Nevada desert via GPS etc we can surely manage that.

I know it will upset some people but I believe it's time IFALPA decided to recommend that pilots refuse to fly circling approaches in large a/c. Like the "Black Spot" airfields issue - that might get some action.

[aterpster]

BOAC:

Folks - even if 411A doesn't know his own circling area , it matters not for this crash. Whether they were using a TERPS area or a PansOps circling area is TOTALLY irrelevant as they were way outside both.

I rather strongly disagree. Part of assessing an accident is to learn all that is relevant to preventing a repeat. In this case a close look at the vast differences in protected airspace between FAA TERPs and ICAO PANS-OPS is relevant. Some people did learn from the China Air crash how significantly less safe TERPs is than PANS-OPS when it comes to CTL.

I believe a competent, proficient crew that has good local knowledge of OPRN can safely circle to land, but perhaps at 1,000 feet, afe, rather than the authorized 842 feet.

[BOAC]

aterpster - your logic escapes me! Is not the way "to learn all that is relevant to preventing a repeat" to ensure that WHATEVER the cleared area, pilots remain in it?

What is wrong with 842' (or 850)? Looks OK on the chart to me.

[Meekal]

Denlopeviper (hope I have your 'name' spelled correct.

I would not want to get into a discussion here about the army! I have some rather strong views about them especially their spy agency the ISI.

It surprises me that you have a clear view about the C-130 crash. If you ask people who might know in Pakistan they will roll their eyes and mutter something. I even met an American woman here in DC who was part of the investigation team. She said no probable cause was ever determined! There is a report to be sure hidden somewhere (the US would have insisted and they probably have their own) but it does not come up with a definitive cause. Lockheed was also involved in the investigation.

[411A]

Folks - even if 411A doesn't know his own circling area

Ahhh, but 411A does, because...we use the TERPS criteria in our ops specs, which if you recall, are more restrictive than PANSOPS.
TERPS is...two statute miles, for a category D aircraft, such as we operate, at 600aal, or charted, whichever is higher.

In any case, it is simply...'can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen' as Harry Truman used to say.
Can't circle, or...not properly trained to do so in your highly automated aircraft, better find a nice comfy ILS (or, if you are approved, VNAV/WAAS approach) to your desired landing runway.
Leave the circling to the pros that know how to do it properly.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by 411

Ahhh, but 411A does, because...we use the TERPS criteria in our ops specs, which if you recall, are more restrictive than PANSOPS.
TERPS is...two statute miles, for a category D aircraft,

- methinks your Ops need better glasses!

[411A]

methinks your Ops need better glasses!

Glasses fine, thank you.
The chart criteria is two miles for our category D airplane.
IF, on a type check in the airplane, you stray outside this two mile area, the FAA inspector will hand you a pink slip and say...'come back when you've had more training.'

[BOAC]

The chart criteria is two (statute) miles for our category D airplane.

- so you are saying Jeppesen is wrong?

[Farrell]

PANS-OPS uses a much larger radius than TERPS.

The radius for Category D aircraft is 5.28nm for PANS-OPS procedures compared to 2.30 nm for TERPS.

To add: When procedures are based on TERPS, this should be clearly highlighted on the approach plate.

[411A]

...2.30 nm for TERPS.

2 miles, as printed on the approach chart...even more restrictive.

To add: When procedures are based on TERPS, this should be clearly highlighted on the approach plate.

They normally are, at least on the Jeppesen charts that we use.

In any case, traverse outside the circling area charted on the respective procedure, expect possible grief.

[rgbrock1]

SLF/Non-pilot here, so please excuse the ignorant question.

Can someone explain to me, in layman's terms preferably, what a "circling approach" is? I think I have an idea but that may not be based in fact or reality.

Thanks.

[GarageYears]

rgbrock1: try this > Circling Approaches

I think it does a reasonable job of explaining what all this is about.

- GY

[BOAC]

rg - this would be a simple intro guide for you but be aware that the figures quoted for the circling area are the PansOps ones. This one gives you the TERPS figures.

Farrell - I'm beginning to think 411A has a huge gulf of understanding of charts and circling despite all the bluff and bravado. The clue is in "2 (statute) miles, as printed on the approach chart...even more restrictive" - see what I mean? I'd love to know where he thinks the circling area is 'printed on the chart'

[aterpster]

boac:

aterpster - your logic escapes me! Is not the way "to learn all that is relevant to preventing a repeat" to ensure that WHATEVER the cleared area, pilots remain in it?

It simply is not possible for a Cat D airplane at max landing weight, and with adverse winds to remain within TERPs CTL protected airspace. This is why Change 21 of TERPs has better CTL criteria (not as good as PANS-OPS though) but thus far political forces in the U.S. have prevented implementation.

What is wrong with 842' (or 850)? Looks OK on the chart to me.

The visual geometry becomes difficult in a jet at low heights unless there is a lot of practice and a whole lot of proficiency. That is my considered opinion; others can certainly disagree.

[411A]

I'd love to know where he thinks the circling area is 'printed on the chart'

'Tis quite simple, BOAC.
In the minima section of the Jeppesen approach chart, you will find the lowest minima to which circling is allowed, in our particular case, for our category D airplane, 600aal/2 miles is the lowest you will find.
Therefore, if our happless pilot decideds to go beyond the 2 mile limit during his/her circling maneuver, especially not in visual contact with the intended landing runway, possible grief awaits.

Hmmm, no wonder pilots have a problem with circling...they don't understand the consequesnces of it being done, incorrectly.

It simply is not possible for a Cat D airplane at max landing weight, and with adverse winds to remain within TERPs CTL protected airspace.

Yes, often times correct...this requires forethought prior to the intended circling maneuver.

unless there is a lot of practice and a whole lot of proficiency. That is my considered opinion; others can certainly disagree.

Agree, proficiency is the key to success.

[rgbrock1]

GarageYears:

Thanks for that. Very clear now. My initial thoughts on what a circling approach was proved somewhat correct. But nowhere near as detailed as that provided in the link.
I'm impressed by such a maneuver.

The only circling approaches I was ever familiar with, and took part in, were similar to these:



Which really aren't the same as those by a civilian aircraft!!!

[BOAC]

for our category D airplane, 600aal/2 miles is the lowest you will find.

- anyone else want to tell him what the "-2" is............? It certainly ain't your circling area, sunshine! Are you for real?

..and I believe the minimum aal is 550' for Cat D, not 600.

[411A]

- anyone else want to tell him what the "-2" is............?

It is the lowest allowed weather minima, and...if you pay attention, flying outside the two mile radius, you are no longer in any sort of protected area, at the charted minimum circling altitude.

..and I believe the minimum aal is 550' for Cat D, not 600.

Ours is 600, in the ops specs.

Really, BOAC, if you were to fly for an FAA operator, I can see you might have severe difficulty passing the checkride.

[BOAC]

Well done - you are right about the weather minima but "if you pay attention, flying outside the two mile radius" is total garbage (or trash as I think you call it). The 'radius' is 2.3 nautics based on the end of each runway. Just ask one of your 'co-pilots' - they will put you straight It is covered by TERPS which you could look up on the internet if you wish.

Others have noticed, 411A - your cover is blown.

[aterpster]

411A:

2 miles, as printed on the approach chart...even more restrictive.

I think you might be confusing the standard CAT D circling visibility minimum of 2 s.m. with the TERPs containment area, which is 2.3 n.m.

If your Ops Specs states you must remain within 2 n.m. while doing CAT D CTL, that would not change the TERPs criteria by which your IAPs are constructed; that is, unless they are non-public (special) IAPs. Even with specials, the FAA would not reduce the circling protected airspace.