Lufthansa cargo plane crash
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Something just crossed my mind due to the conflicting reports - wildest speculation , I know - but maybe the Saudis would like to make this up as a landing accident because there was "some special cargo" on board which went pooof...
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Yeah... right... 35 seconds - without being prepared due to a prior mayday call - some things don't fit together here...
(just looking to see how many fires I can start)
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Fuel Lines
q100 - same as a Ten. The No.2 and APU shared fuel line runs L/H fuselage inside pressurised area lower aft/centre cargo pits. If they do leak/break they are protected in a 20 gauge shroud tube vented to outside in two places. Just the sidewalls separate this from the upper deck compartment. On that piece of knowledge I'd say fire first, fuel contributed (much) later.
Disclaimer - if indeed de dah de dah de dah.........................
Disclaimer - if indeed de dah de dah de dah.........................
Something just crossed my mind due to the conflicting reports - wildest speculation , I know - but maybe the Saudis would like to make this up as a landing accident because there was "some special cargo" on board which went pooof...
Unbelievable, it took until #104 to get the first conspiracy theorist onboard, well done sir for waiting so long to take the bait.
Latest I heard is no fire/emergency call ahead of landing.
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Thanks Diesel - I learned something today!
Wonder what happened. Guess we'll find out in due time (or overdue time if the Saudi investigators move at the same pace the Japanese & Chinese ones seem to be)
Wonder what happened. Guess we'll find out in due time (or overdue time if the Saudi investigators move at the same pace the Japanese & Chinese ones seem to be)
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35 seconds...?
CAA spokesman Khaled al-Alkhyeeri said on Jul 29th the captain and first officer are in good health with very minor injuries. Emergency services reached the aircraft within 35 seconds after touch down using half of their agents within 3 minutes thus efficiently confining the fire to the cargo hold.
Just look at the the way they handled the B737 in April, where the crew declared an emergency right after takeoff and desperately and repeatedly was asking for vectors back to the field. Once they made it safely on the ground, nobody in Riyadh seemed to be in a rush...
My point? They must have known that this incoming airplane was in some sort of trouble.
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Unbelievable, it took until #104 to get the first conspiracy theorist onboard, well done sir for waiting so long to take the bait.
Regarding the 35 seconds I agree with jetopa - When the AF crashed in Toronto back in 2005 response time was 52 seconds - and the Canadians were bragging for years about that exceptional time...
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q100
I think you may be slightly unfair to the Saudi CAA.
I was involved in a serious airmiss over their airspace some years ago and the investigation was handled in a very efficient and expeditious way.
I think you may be slightly unfair to the Saudi CAA.
I was involved in a serious airmiss over their airspace some years ago and the investigation was handled in a very efficient and expeditious way.
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finn,
Not knocking the Saudis (although having spent quite a bit of time there it sure is tempting). More a comment on how long it's taking us MD11 drivers to find out what went wrong last year in Narita & Shanghai, so that perhaps if there are things we need to know we can avoid sharing the fates of those crews.
Q
Not knocking the Saudis (although having spent quite a bit of time there it sure is tempting). More a comment on how long it's taking us MD11 drivers to find out what went wrong last year in Narita & Shanghai, so that perhaps if there are things we need to know we can avoid sharing the fates of those crews.
Q
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I would be utterly astonished if this is a DG event. Lufty are pretty good with their loading and DG checking fromIt's what I have witnessed.
It's also very hard to get CAO DG to burn in proper UN spec containers, so was it a hard landing, underpacked DG or undeclared DG?
It's also very hard to get CAO DG to burn in proper UN spec containers, so was it a hard landing, underpacked DG or undeclared DG?
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Have experienced many things so far. Scalding stuff, cacao for instance can be very nasty, underpacked DG, similar. Or DG loaded in the wrong place i.e. underneath tonnes of general cargo.
Undeclared DG, only became evident after the paint (luckily) started leaking and was caught in time.
No doubt LH is damn good in cargo handling, the a/c came from FRA.
Nevertheless, the holes in the cheese may line up one day and fact is that the crew did the right thing.
Undeclared DG, only became evident after the paint (luckily) started leaking and was caught in time.
No doubt LH is damn good in cargo handling, the a/c came from FRA.
Nevertheless, the holes in the cheese may line up one day and fact is that the crew did the right thing.
Yeah... right... 35 seconds - without being prepared due to a prior mayday call - some things don't fit together here...
Unless a fire crew/s was out on the airfield at the time, on routine duties, e.g. training, hydrant checking, posing for calenders etc, and happened to be pretty close to the accident by sheer luck.
Unless a fire crew/s was out on the airfield at the time, on routine duties, e.g. training, hydrant checking, posing for calenders etc, and happened to be pretty close to the accident by sheer luck.
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Aviation Week have an article regarding this accident.
LH state there was no fire.
Interesting speculation towards the end of the article about the future of MD11 as a member of the LH family.
Can anyone comment on whether cargo carried in MD11's attracts any insurance surcharge?
For my speculation, if MD11 were to be withdrawn, could we see LH converting their 748I order to 748F?
LH state there was no fire.
Interesting speculation towards the end of the article about the future of MD11 as a member of the LH family.
Can anyone comment on whether cargo carried in MD11's attracts any insurance surcharge?
For my speculation, if MD11 were to be withdrawn, could we see LH converting their 748I order to 748F?
Chase,
As long as LH doesn't know if the Nimby's manage to place a ban on operations in FRA between 00:00 and 05:00, I don't suspect LCAG will order much of anything. If the Nimby's loose, as I suspect we all hope they do, my money would be on the 777F instead of the 747-8F. It's the natural successor to the MD-11F, and LH left the outsize cargo business quite a few years ago, finding the MD-11F and loads no bigger than what a 20ft pallet will hold being a more cost effective proposition.
As long as LH doesn't know if the Nimby's manage to place a ban on operations in FRA between 00:00 and 05:00, I don't suspect LCAG will order much of anything. If the Nimby's loose, as I suspect we all hope they do, my money would be on the 777F instead of the 747-8F. It's the natural successor to the MD-11F, and LH left the outsize cargo business quite a few years ago, finding the MD-11F and loads no bigger than what a 20ft pallet will hold being a more cost effective proposition.
Person Of Interest
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RE: Riyadh Emergency response teams and their time to respond...Back in 1998 I was flying a VIP B-727...Mutt knows who for...We departed Riyadh for Beiruit to pick up the principal, and then take him and his party to Tunis...Fuel being cheaper in Saudi than other places (go figure???) we fuelled for both legs...
Immediately after "Positive Rate, Gear Up", and I do mean immediately, the Cabin Chief, whom I had flown with in VIP Ops for yrs., came up front and informed us that the cabin was full of "smoke"...
The F/O was flying, I turned and looked, and I couldn't see more than 10' back into the lounge...
I donned my mask and smoke goggles, instructed the crew to do the same, took control of the A/C and ordered the F/E (also a long-time crewmember with me) to start dumping fuel...
We weighed, well let's just say we were an empty B-727 100 with 75,000 lbs of fuel on board...In any case our max landing weight was 142,500 and I wanted to get it as close as possible, but with no thought of climbing and going into holding to get down to weight...(remember Valujet?)
We didn't know where the smoke was coming from but it was acrid...We had departed to the south from the left side...I elected to keep the flaps at 15 and hold 160 -180, with 160 kts being our min threshold target with flaps 30..
(the 727 will fly at 160 with 15 flaps downhill regardless of the weight.)
I told the F/O to declare an EMERGENCY, as the Saudi Controllers understand that, and that we wanted the equipment, we were going to remain in right traffic and land on the right side...
As it turns out I cut it too close and didn't compensate for the weight of the A/C...When we rolled out on final, we ende up aligned with the left side, (my fault) and informed the controllers that's the runway we were going to end up on...
I observed the Saudi Rescue Crews, who were in place for our arrival on the right side, race to the left side (by the Gen Av Ramp)...
We landed, evacuated, and they were there...total time of this event was 7 minutes tops, from declaring the emergency to brakes set, and the CFR response was outstanding...
The 3 F/A's didn't don their Abayas and nothing was said...
Turns out the smoke was coming out of the venliation system via the gasper fan...An electrical harness had shorted out, the rubber coating was melting, and the resulting smoke was pumped into the cabin by the gasper fan...
The point of my post is to say that from the time we told ATC of our intentions, Riyadh CFR was on the way...VERY WELL HANDLED by Riyadh, in my opinion...
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Early in the war, my father was Post Engineer and Fire Marshall at Sheppard Field. One Saturday he had taken me to his office on the apron, not far from the runway threshold, west end. There was a firehouse just off the runway, south side. The tower was somewhere nearby on the far side of the runway. I was five, at most just six.
Pilots trained here in a number of aircraft. The landing procedure was that a flight of 4 or 5 would make a "downwind" pass near the tower at low elevation, and then peel off left at intervals into a 180 to land, coming back past the firehouse. I said downwind pass, but I never saw them use the runway in the other direction, so a lot of the landings may have been downwind, if not most.
This day would involve a Thunderbolt. Radios were in short supply and the training P-47s did not have them. I assume the close tower pass let the tower check for gear down or other trouble. My father and I had just left his office to head for home. We hadn't gotten 100 feet down the apron when the firehouse siren went off, the doors went up, and a large fire truck-- large even by today's standards-- rolled out all in one motion. He crossed to the far side of the runway and turned right and raced at full speed down the runway.
At the same time my father veered from the exit and headed up toward the firehouse and himself turned down the near side of the runway and floored the gas. I had the good sense to stand up on the front edge of the seat and get a good grip on the top of the windshield. Well, it isn't like there was anything else to hang onto in that jeep-- no radio in it either. We went down the runway at 60 flat out and didn't catch the fire truck.
I just don't remember exactly when the Thunderbolt entered the picture. We could not have outrun it from an even start. The fire truck had to have crossed the runway ahead of the aircraft, considering the distance it slid, and the speed at which it did so-- it was an extremely heavy fighter for its day. Gear failure to lower, obviously. No time to foam the runway, if they even had the capability then. All I remember for sure is that we all three went down the runway more or less in a small group. The fire truck and the P-47 ground to a halt together, and we were 5 or 10 seconds behind, about 30 feet to one side, and the fire truck about the same on the other.
Having to write this down, I realize now that the fire truck had to position itself on the upwind side of the aircraft. There must have been a telephone line from the tower, and the fire crew must have known they had to cross the runway before the P-47 reached its turning point and returned, and known exactly how much time they had to do this.
When we got there, the pilot was already out of the cockpit and standing up on the fuselage. There wasn't anyway he could get off of it, because just like that the plane was already surrounded by a burning pool of fuel. And on that plane, you are a long way up on the top of it.
One of the fire crew was already in his reflective aluminum foil suit, put on his helmet and walked toward the burning fuel with a foam hand line. He knocked the fire down on that side in short order, maybe 15 seconds. A couple of the fire crew came over with a ladder and got the pilot off. The fire was still burning on our side. I remember it had a four-bladed propeller, and all the tips were bent back. It had yawed about 20 degrees to the right, but slid fairly straight. The rescue looked effortless-- I'm sure that seconds mattered, though.
Years later, after my father had died, I found a letter from a general commending him. It seemed it was my father who had devised this procedure, to deal with what had become a considerable problem. So yes, I don't see a 35-second response as being something that just isn't possible.
Anyway, one of my father's last airport jobs involved the design and construction of the airbase at Dhahran in the Saudi. He was Chief of the Design Division in Tripoli, and the design reviews and resolution of construction problems at Dhahran were handled by his office. It is possible the Saudis learned from him where the firehouses should be placed and why --it would have been within his authority to set that detail up just as he thought it should be done. I assume Riyadh would have copied such details.
OE
Pilots trained here in a number of aircraft. The landing procedure was that a flight of 4 or 5 would make a "downwind" pass near the tower at low elevation, and then peel off left at intervals into a 180 to land, coming back past the firehouse. I said downwind pass, but I never saw them use the runway in the other direction, so a lot of the landings may have been downwind, if not most.
This day would involve a Thunderbolt. Radios were in short supply and the training P-47s did not have them. I assume the close tower pass let the tower check for gear down or other trouble. My father and I had just left his office to head for home. We hadn't gotten 100 feet down the apron when the firehouse siren went off, the doors went up, and a large fire truck-- large even by today's standards-- rolled out all in one motion. He crossed to the far side of the runway and turned right and raced at full speed down the runway.
At the same time my father veered from the exit and headed up toward the firehouse and himself turned down the near side of the runway and floored the gas. I had the good sense to stand up on the front edge of the seat and get a good grip on the top of the windshield. Well, it isn't like there was anything else to hang onto in that jeep-- no radio in it either. We went down the runway at 60 flat out and didn't catch the fire truck.
I just don't remember exactly when the Thunderbolt entered the picture. We could not have outrun it from an even start. The fire truck had to have crossed the runway ahead of the aircraft, considering the distance it slid, and the speed at which it did so-- it was an extremely heavy fighter for its day. Gear failure to lower, obviously. No time to foam the runway, if they even had the capability then. All I remember for sure is that we all three went down the runway more or less in a small group. The fire truck and the P-47 ground to a halt together, and we were 5 or 10 seconds behind, about 30 feet to one side, and the fire truck about the same on the other.
Having to write this down, I realize now that the fire truck had to position itself on the upwind side of the aircraft. There must have been a telephone line from the tower, and the fire crew must have known they had to cross the runway before the P-47 reached its turning point and returned, and known exactly how much time they had to do this.
When we got there, the pilot was already out of the cockpit and standing up on the fuselage. There wasn't anyway he could get off of it, because just like that the plane was already surrounded by a burning pool of fuel. And on that plane, you are a long way up on the top of it.
One of the fire crew was already in his reflective aluminum foil suit, put on his helmet and walked toward the burning fuel with a foam hand line. He knocked the fire down on that side in short order, maybe 15 seconds. A couple of the fire crew came over with a ladder and got the pilot off. The fire was still burning on our side. I remember it had a four-bladed propeller, and all the tips were bent back. It had yawed about 20 degrees to the right, but slid fairly straight. The rescue looked effortless-- I'm sure that seconds mattered, though.
Years later, after my father had died, I found a letter from a general commending him. It seemed it was my father who had devised this procedure, to deal with what had become a considerable problem. So yes, I don't see a 35-second response as being something that just isn't possible.
Anyway, one of my father's last airport jobs involved the design and construction of the airbase at Dhahran in the Saudi. He was Chief of the Design Division in Tripoli, and the design reviews and resolution of construction problems at Dhahran were handled by his office. It is possible the Saudis learned from him where the firehouses should be placed and why --it would have been within his authority to set that detail up just as he thought it should be done. I assume Riyadh would have copied such details.
OE
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It is possible the Saudis learned from him where the firehouses should be placed and why ...
Manned 24/7, as I recall.
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Hard Landing
German media reports cause of crash as hard landing, followed by damaged gear, which caused the airplane to veer off the pavement, then catch fire. 
Fehler bei Landung Ursache für Absturz von Frachtflugzeug in Riad
Der Absturz eines Frachtflugzeugs der Lufthansa auf dem Flughafen der saudiarabischen Hauptstadt Riad ist offenbar auf einen Fehler bei der Landung zurückzuführen. Die Maschine sei bei der Landung auf der Rollbahn aufgeprallt, wodurch das Fahrgestell zerstört worden sei, erklärte der Sicherheitschef der saudiarabischen Luftfahrtbehörde, Abel Rahman Buchari, am Samstag in Dschiddah. Daraufhin sei die Maschine ins Rutschen geraten und von der Landebahn abgekommen. "Der Aufprall hat in der Maschine einen Brand ausgelöst", hieß es weiter unter Berufung auf erste Ermittlungsergebnisse. Endgültige Klarheit solle die Auswertung der beiden Flugdatenschreiber bringen, die inzwischen gefunden worden seien.
Der Absturz eines Frachtflugzeugs der Lufthansa auf dem Flughafen der saudiarabischen Hauptstadt Riad ist offenbar auf einen Fehler bei der Landung zurückzuführen. Die Maschine sei bei der Landung auf der Rollbahn aufgeprallt, wodurch das Fahrgestell zerstört worden sei, erklärte der Sicherheitschef der saudiarabischen Luftfahrtbehörde, Abel Rahman Buchari, am Samstag in Dschiddah. Daraufhin sei die Maschine ins Rutschen geraten und von der Landebahn abgekommen. "Der Aufprall hat in der Maschine einen Brand ausgelöst", hieß es weiter unter Berufung auf erste Ermittlungsergebnisse. Endgültige Klarheit solle die Auswertung der beiden Flugdatenschreiber bringen, die inzwischen gefunden worden seien.
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I can hardly believe that a hard landing was the reason it caught fire. The wing (area) looks clear of fire marks and I doubt it that there was (still) fuel in the centre tanks, even when it was fueled for the next trip to SHJ.
The media I believe even less. Still a lot of questions.
The media I believe even less. Still a lot of questions.