BA 747 Crew commended
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Brilliant job
Well done to the crew and clearly the handling pilot in particular. Eyes on the ball or what?! Simply brilliant. Delighted you were there at the right time and place and in the top of your form to give of your best.
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Request to the Pprune moderators: Please stop the divergence on this thread. The thread's label is about a B744 technical failure at JNB (a hot and high and RTOW limited airfield) which was brilliantly handled by the flightcrew.
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Request to the Pprune moderators: Please stop the divergence on this thread. The thread's label is about a B744 technical failure at JNB (a hot and high and RTOW limited airfield) which was brilliantly handled by the flightcrew.
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if you don't allow for divergence, the thread would be: nice job...and would have been over three pages ago.
divergence is interesting, tangental knowledge that just might come in handy one day.
divergence is interesting, tangental knowledge that just might come in handy one day.
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One of the times where the divergence has been useful and well contained (IMO). I suggest that the self-moderation that seems to have limited the divergent angles has been adequate, and thank the mods fo allowing the discussion.
L337 and Wiggy
Thank you for correcting me, I'm not at all familiar with EICAS or even FMS displays, but my point was that from old memory I think that not only would the Classic 747 have had a REV unlock light, but also a LE flap out of sync. light - even tho' the aircraft might have ' thought' it was in a landing roll and therefore all was well - which I was suggesting might have been more obvious than EICAS messages, and that so called 'progress' isn't always a plus ?
Cheers,
ExS.
Thank you for correcting me, I'm not at all familiar with EICAS or even FMS displays, but my point was that from old memory I think that not only would the Classic 747 have had a REV unlock light, but also a LE flap out of sync. light - even tho' the aircraft might have ' thought' it was in a landing roll and therefore all was well - which I was suggesting might have been more obvious than EICAS messages, and that so called 'progress' isn't always a plus ?
Cheers,
ExS.
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exspeedbird
I think you make a good point. While I haven't flown the 747 in any of its forms, the planes I have flown both had reverser unlocked, reverser ready lights. also a simple light indicating slats were properly extended.
either of these lights on or off as the case may be during takeoff would have gotten my attention.
I think you make a good point. While I haven't flown the 747 in any of its forms, the planes I have flown both had reverser unlocked, reverser ready lights. also a simple light indicating slats were properly extended.
either of these lights on or off as the case may be during takeoff would have gotten my attention.
protectthe hornet,
Yes, although the BA crew did a good job they appear not to have been aware of the LE flaps, that's not to suggest that they might, or should, or even could, have done anything differently of course, but knowledge is power !
Yes, although the BA crew did a good job they appear not to have been aware of the LE flaps, that's not to suggest that they might, or should, or even could, have done anything differently of course, but knowledge is power !
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From 1.6.4 of the report;
"The retraction of Group 'A' LE flaps is shown as a color change on the flap indicator EICAS display which is hardly visible on the display."
I don't see what difference it would have made if they had known about the LE flaps, as it occured after V1, and there was no way of extending Group 'A' except automatically when airborne.
Was it rather irresponsible of the SACAA to commend the crew without having consulted the experts on PPRuNe to see how it could have been done better?
Dave
"The retraction of Group 'A' LE flaps is shown as a color change on the flap indicator EICAS display which is hardly visible on the display."
I don't see what difference it would have made if they had known about the LE flaps, as it occured after V1, and there was no way of extending Group 'A' except automatically when airborne.
Was it rather irresponsible of the SACAA to commend the crew without having consulted the experts on PPRuNe to see how it could have been done better?
Dave
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airclues
how snide. every word on this forum, might just help someone in the future...we are pilots who are talking...and maybe there might be one or two pearls of wisdom.
I didn't know that the LED's retracted automatically on this type. I've learned something. But I think someone else might have learned something by at least thinking of firewalling the throttles. Or consider the concepts of the importance of knowing where your slats are and your reversers...whether it is on a flat screen display or old fashioned lights.
I sure know what I would do if the reverser unlock lights illuminated during takeoff on my type.
how snide. every word on this forum, might just help someone in the future...we are pilots who are talking...and maybe there might be one or two pearls of wisdom.
I didn't know that the LED's retracted automatically on this type. I've learned something. But I think someone else might have learned something by at least thinking of firewalling the throttles. Or consider the concepts of the importance of knowing where your slats are and your reversers...whether it is on a flat screen display or old fashioned lights.
I sure know what I would do if the reverser unlock lights illuminated during takeoff on my type.
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Originally Posted by dozing4dollars
Thanks Air Rabbit
Additionally, I want to express my sincere thanks to the moderators here as well ... for putting up with my extended response to questions and positions that were presented.
The threads started and the subjects discussed on this forum provide an exceptional opportunity to exchange views and provide an opportunity to express one's concerns and provide answers and explanations to clarify and help further understand areas that may not have been recognized or understood previously. Each of the participants deserves a "thank you" as well - constructive criticisms, legitimate questions, and honest expressions without personal attacks are a hallmark of this forum - and all involved should be justifiably proud of the service provided to the aviation industry.
Please, someone correct me if in error but I thought I saw somewhere on this website that the B747-400s did not come standard with a stickshaker but BA requested it as as an extra when they ordered them. If so, then that decision has contributed to a life saving outcome.
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james ozzie:
Stick shakers are pretty much standard fitting on all transport category aircraft. Many years ago, there was a mandate for UK registered jets to have stick pushers, which are an entirely separate matter, related to deep stall in aircraft with a T-tail configuration. That's probably where the confusion started.
PTH :
I think he was joking.
Stick shakers are pretty much standard fitting on all transport category aircraft. Many years ago, there was a mandate for UK registered jets to have stick pushers, which are an entirely separate matter, related to deep stall in aircraft with a T-tail configuration. That's probably where the confusion started.
PTH :
I think he was joking.
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I wonder if the 200 hour cadet pilots that my company deem to be of acceptable experience would have handled such a frightening situation with such aplomb?
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Right Engine said:
No doubt a fair and accurate comment. However this might give the erroneous impression to some readers that BA jumbos have copilots with 200 hours total flying them. When I joined BA the requirement for flying a 747 was a minimum of 500 hours jet time.
The handling pilot started life in BA with exactly 200 hours, having graduated from from Oxford Air Training School.
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Dozy
You said: "Stick shakers are pretty much standard fitting on all transport category aircraft".
That's a bold statement, since Airbus has been delivering more planes than Boeing for many years now, and no new Airbus has a stick shaker.
No stick to shake.
That's a bold statement, since Airbus has been delivering more planes than Boeing for many years now, and no new Airbus has a stick shaker.
No stick to shake.
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Suninmyeyes,
A clarification I gladly welcome. I merely aimed to point out the paradox of getting someone as steely eyed as James B at the controls of a 747, to do such a remarkable job, that he started quite ironically on a 737 with the aforementioned total time. We all start with not many hours and it is the job of those who have a few more to pass on their wisdom, not as in the case I quoted, our disdain.
A clarification I gladly welcome. I merely aimed to point out the paradox of getting someone as steely eyed as James B at the controls of a 747, to do such a remarkable job, that he started quite ironically on a 737 with the aforementioned total time. We all start with not many hours and it is the job of those who have a few more to pass on their wisdom, not as in the case I quoted, our disdain.
PTH,
Last time I flew the 744, stall recovery was:
Max thrust
Reduce pitch attitude to +5deg
Level wings
At high altitude then clearly, a shallow descent may be necessary to regain speed.
Caveat to above: if in unusual position roll wings level then adjust attitude.
The foregoing applies if ground contact is not a factor.
If it is, then it's still max thrust and don't hit the ground
Smooth inputs, don't allow a g-stall pitch-up.
p.s. I think Airclues is aware of the value of positive discussion - ees joke, seņor
Last time I flew the 744, stall recovery was:
Max thrust
Reduce pitch attitude to +5deg
Level wings
At high altitude then clearly, a shallow descent may be necessary to regain speed.
Caveat to above: if in unusual position roll wings level then adjust attitude.
The foregoing applies if ground contact is not a factor.
If it is, then it's still max thrust and don't hit the ground
Smooth inputs, don't allow a g-stall pitch-up.
p.s. I think Airclues is aware of the value of positive discussion - ees joke, seņor