French ATC
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I thought I wrote "most"...
You seem to have a problem with Marseille ATC on a particular descent.
As far as I'm concerned, in Brest, I say as much as possible :
" Descend FL xxx, be leveled by (or abeam if a direct has been given), start at discretion".
Usually, let's say often, pilots start late and take around 3000'/min or even more. Not far from 10000 ft in 3 min.
Would it help if the controler told you, at first contact "..., expect FL xxx by XXXXX, report for lower " ? (That's what I do. Do you think it helps?)
In this case, you would wait for the clearance and tell the controler that if he doesn't give you the clearance soon, you will be unable.
So he can give you the clearance on time for your machine (which seems to be diferent from the traffic this controler had that day) or find another solution with the following sector...
(which shouldn't occur, as you called back for lower in time...)
You seem to have a problem with Marseille ATC on a particular descent.
As far as I'm concerned, in Brest, I say as much as possible :
" Descend FL xxx, be leveled by (or abeam if a direct has been given), start at discretion".
Usually, let's say often, pilots start late and take around 3000'/min or even more. Not far from 10000 ft in 3 min.
Would it help if the controler told you, at first contact "..., expect FL xxx by XXXXX, report for lower " ? (That's what I do. Do you think it helps?)
In this case, you would wait for the clearance and tell the controler that if he doesn't give you the clearance soon, you will be unable.
So he can give you the clearance on time for your machine (which seems to be diferent from the traffic this controler had that day) or find another solution with the following sector...
(which shouldn't occur, as you called back for lower in time...)
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10,000' in 3 minutes = 3,333'/m. Fairly comfortable really.
At this point the high yield customer sitting a couple of rows behind me has the priority over the frenchmen.
By the way, when flying through France I often play pig headed.
What you give is what you get they say....
Gender Faculty Specialist
So now you're qualifying your statement with rough air and reducing speed.
Why not say that in the first place instead of ommiting it to try and prove that French ATC aren't up to standard.
So, ATC would have had a fairly good idea of your aircraft performance except you didn't tell them you were having to slow down because of turbulence.
Seems to me that you have just admitted to very poor, basic, airmanship.
And no customer, no matter how much they paid for their ticket, takes priority over the safe and efficient flow of air traffic.
Why not say that in the first place instead of ommiting it to try and prove that French ATC aren't up to standard.
So, ATC would have had a fairly good idea of your aircraft performance except you didn't tell them you were having to slow down because of turbulence.
Seems to me that you have just admitted to very poor, basic, airmanship.
And no customer, no matter how much they paid for their ticket, takes priority over the safe and efficient flow of air traffic.
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I-FORD,
Spanish/French ATC give me a hard time?Fine.
But don't expect anything different from me then.
If nationality counts in your equation then I'm of mixed origines: half from southern and half from northern Europe.
Spanish/French ATC give me a hard time?Fine.
But don't expect anything different from me then.
If nationality counts in your equation then I'm of mixed origines: half from southern and half from northern Europe.
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And no customer, no matter how much they paid for their ticket, takes priority over the safe and efficient flow of air traffic.
That's what you get for having me descent 100nm before my FPL descent point and after denying different levels and directs.
P.S.: 3300ft/min at heavy weights is almost an emergency decent with some machinery.
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I wish there were no problem with origins.
So, that was a fake...(the post, not the writer) Where is the camera ?
Maybepilot, you seem to be a bit of a spoiler. The thing that comes out from time to time and pulls backwards when people tend to push forwards.
In order to help, would you mind answering my questions ? Or did I just spit in the wind ? Would it help ?
And, by the way, if a controler tells you to be leveled in 3 minutes, might be because there's traffic around. He might talk to you not only to let the time go by...
So, that was a fake...(the post, not the writer) Where is the camera ?
Maybepilot, you seem to be a bit of a spoiler. The thing that comes out from time to time and pulls backwards when people tend to push forwards.
In order to help, would you mind answering my questions ? Or did I just spit in the wind ? Would it help ?
And, by the way, if a controler tells you to be leveled in 3 minutes, might be because there's traffic around. He might talk to you not only to let the time go by...
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And, by the way, if a controler tells you to be leveled in 3 minutes, might be because there's traffic around.
Between your LOA and my high yield customer just waking up after along journey I give priority to the latter.
Especially if you haven't been kind to me lately.
In order to help, would you mind answering my questions ? Or did I just spit in the wind ? Would it help ?
But speaking english to all traffic would also help my situational awareness as would improving your language skills or more flexibility with regard to levels and re-routings.
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And is "Maximum 3 minutes" not specific enough for you?
In today's pathetic situation I just don't that.
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@Maybepilot: Ever stopped to think why there is a LOA? Ever had a good TCAS explanation? Did it ever occur to you that ATCo's aren't providing a service to individual pilots, but to Airlines?
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A while ago I asked what was the reason since the sun wasn't even up and my TCAS was showing nobody in my way
Your TCAS shows only the present situation. You know where the surrounding traffic is, but you don't know where it goes.(here, I could come back to language and comprehension of the situation)
Sometimes, you have to descend early just in order to land on your destination, but you can't see that on your TCAS.
Let me give you an example :
Planes going to Paris CDG via ANG have to be there FL 280 (which is quite low) 50 miles too soon, I guess.
First reason : Paris has to sequence them ASAP. Being at FL 280 gives them a chance to fly IAS and except some "big machines", most of the traffic becomes "compatible".
Second reason : if they are not at that level, they enter another sector dealing with London's and Paris' departures. By definition, if he's not below, he's above. A bit harder to deal with, but why not.
So the plane, instead of being below, has to cross 5 different flows in a sector that didn't even waited him...Why not. Let's say he was awaited.
Now, he's above departures from London and Paris, AND arrivals to Brussels let's start the descent... "be level in 3 min"/"unable"... "Roger, radar..." .... OOPs a bit late, now. Here come the departures from Brussels, Franckfurt, Luxemburg, there's another departure flow from London... and the arrival to Paris is still up high above everybody, where (not when) it should be established on final...
Maybe a rerouting via Hamsterdam will be the solution.
This exemple is a bit long, but it represents a 6 minutes' situation, around 50 miles... The distance you wanted to save.
Nothing to do with friendliness. But a bit of cooperation can, indeed, help. Procedures have been thought about by far better controlers than I am.
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Ever stopped to think why there is a LOA?
Ever had a good TCAS explanation?
Did it ever occur to you that ATCo's aren't providing a service to individual pilots, but to Airlines?
BrATCO, bottom line is that the majority of pilots just do not have a clue about the myriad of complex and restrictive LOAs controllers have to work by. Not only should ATCOs be able to take regular FD rides but pilots should all be made to spend a couple of days at a busy ACC. This might then prevent them (such as complete to$$ers like maybepilot) from making ridiculous statements and accusations based on complete ignorance as they often do on these forums.
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Maybepilot,
Suggest you visit a centre VERY soon, ask any questions you like.
You will be surprised in the what, and why, is required in airspace design and procedures.
Have a GOOD read of BrATCOs last post. Build yourself a mental picture of the airspace.
You may not be getting an optimal ride. There are probably some good reasons behind it, that don't include just for 'controller amusement'.
Suggest you visit a centre VERY soon, ask any questions you like.
You will be surprised in the what, and why, is required in airspace design and procedures.
Have a GOOD read of BrATCOs last post. Build yourself a mental picture of the airspace.
You may not be getting an optimal ride. There are probably some good reasons behind it, that don't include just for 'controller amusement'.
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his might then prevent them (such as complete to$$ers like maybepilot) from making ridiculous statements and accusations based on complete ignorance as they often do on these forums.
Stating that the level of English is very poor when flying into Spain or France or that the use of local language greatly reduces situational awareness are not ridiculous statements nor accusations, it's the plain truth.
You would like me to fly my airplane as filed and do what I am told to do without requesting anything from you, well the PIC has the final authority as per legislation and the word "unable" is more and more often used in my vocabulary.
Thanks goodness we also fly to other countries where ATC is still a good and user friendly service being provided....
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Avman,
That's right. There seems to be a slight problem on that point.
Maybe that's the reason why I spend hours here, trying to explain and understand.
I hope all this will help a bit.
And maybe he was climbing higher than his RFL, and maybe you (or him) had asked for a direct, got it, and you (or him) shouldn't have been there at that time regarding the flow control. So, maybe, because of you (or him), there was a traffic overflow...In the end, whose fault is it ?
Don't answer : that's the controler's responsability. Which ATCo ? The one who screwed the clearance or the one who gave the direct ?
Just would like you to think about it before grumbeling when a direct or a level is refused nowaday's in France. And I swear I hope this situation will stop soon.
That's right. There seems to be a slight problem on that point.
Maybe that's the reason why I spend hours here, trying to explain and understand.
I hope all this will help a bit.
Had 1 TCAS RA event in the last 2 years when someone was climbing like a rocket below me, who knows maybe he was given some frenchy clearance to reach a level "in 3 minutes maximum"
Don't answer : that's the controler's responsability. Which ATCo ? The one who screwed the clearance or the one who gave the direct ?
Just would like you to think about it before grumbeling when a direct or a level is refused nowaday's in France. And I swear I hope this situation will stop soon.
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And maybe he was climbing higher than his RFL, and maybe you (or him) had asked for a direct, got it, and you (or him) shouldn't have been there at that time regarding the flow control. So, maybe, because of you (or him), there was a traffic overflow...In the end, whose fault is it ?
Don't answer : that's the controler's responsability. Which ATCo ? The one who screwed the clearance or the one who gave the direct ?
Don't answer : that's the controler's responsability. Which ATCo ? The one who screwed the clearance or the one who gave the direct ?
By the way, next time you fly in the back of an airplane I hope you fly your FPL filed level straight through a TS or for 1 hour through turbulence with the child sitting next to you vomiting on your shoes so you will know what it feels to be out there in the hands of people like you.
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maybepilot, use of the word unable when, in fact, you are able but you're just being selfish, ignorant and pig headed or just don't feel like doing something is completely unprofessional.
Regarding climb rates:
It is up to you how you manage your climb or descent however, you can see (and you should know) that we should be limiting rates to 1000'/m in the final thousand feet to a cleared level.
If you are required to be level in 3 minutes then you have to account for the descent rate in the last 1000'. Be level in 3 minutes is not an instruction to maintain a set rate of climb or descent.
Regarding climb rates:
The ICAO Regional Supplementary Procedures for Europe (Doc 7030/4) do not specify vertical speed(s) for European RVSM airspace.
The EUROCONTROL ACAS Programme recommendation is that when operating within or outside of RVSM airspace, aircraft should be climbed or descended at a rate of less than 1000 feet per minute in the last 1000 feet to level off in order to avoid ACAS alerts, except that pilots shall comply with any climb/descent rates specified in an ATC clearance or instruction
The EUROCONTROL ACAS Programme recommendation is that when operating within or outside of RVSM airspace, aircraft should be climbed or descended at a rate of less than 1000 feet per minute in the last 1000 feet to level off in order to avoid ACAS alerts, except that pilots shall comply with any climb/descent rates specified in an ATC clearance or instruction
suggest you reduce your rate of climb
If you are required to be level in 3 minutes then you have to account for the descent rate in the last 1000'. Be level in 3 minutes is not an instruction to maintain a set rate of climb or descent.